Butch, champers in this respect means champagne and chums means friends. However, we do also use champers which means champion which in turn means brilliant or fantastic or top class etc. But in this instance it was just referencing the first class as a bunch of champagne quaffers, because let's face it, the working class slags in economy class can't even afford one of those midget cans of coke....and heaven forbid if one of those working class rif raf types were to wander into executive class!
Nice to hear that you've got some Geordie blood in you and your grandparents are from Windy Nook which isn't at all far from where I'm from, although God knows when I'll be getting back home!!!

I hope you get home and find a solution Chris. One thing I would say is try to offer a solution that they can realistically deliver. It will cost Delta a lot to send you home on a carrier that is not in their Skyteam alliance. The inter-line agreements within alliances are more favourable than for non alliance airlines.

Phx enjoys the sport of blasting people on the internet. Although we rarely agree, I hope he is not banned permanently. The debate itself is sometimes useful in bringing out issues and it is the internet afterall, it is just speech. No-one is dying.

On his issue of the upgrade, his response, which was clearly designed to get you riled was ridiculous. You are not demanding an upgrade, you are simply asking to be accommodated to get you home. If they have empty seats, whereever they are on the plane, then you should be entitled to get you home. Delta have treated you very badly and they really should do more to assist you.

Jim thanks again for the support and all your help. Personally I think this PHX is a complete idiot, and although some of his points may be valid and he may be knowledgeable, he is also a sly spiteful nasty piece of work who thinks it is funny to laugh at the misfortune of others. You may hope he is not banned but I think the comments that he is continually posting on my thread, serve no purpose then to make me angry and upset. He has been banned before apparently, and warned repeatedly. Why wait any longer, ban the little gimp. The way he has talked to me has done nothing to serve me, and has only made me feel worse. On a site such as this, which is supposed to be helping the consumer if they have a valid case, an idiot like him shouldn't be able to write such nonsense which only serves to inflame already volatile situations. I say lock him up and throw away the key!!!
Getting back to the upgrade I really do not think it is anything difficult for them to try to find me an earlier flight and putting me on it. Yes it may be in first class but I don't care, I just want to get home before Christmas Day. They wouldn't be losing any money and it is the least they can do after ruining everything else.

News update
 

I received this email a couple of days ago but didn't want to mention anything until i was sure that they would not help out further. It reads:

Dear Mr. Alexander,
> >
> > Thank you for your recent e-mail to our Chief Executive Officer,
> Richard
> > Anderson, our Vice President of Customer Care, Perry Cantarutti and
> our
> > General Manager of Customer Care, Beth Reed. I've been asked to
> respond
> > on their behalf. We sincerely apologize for the inaccurate
information
>
> > provided by our Reservations Department.
> >
> > As our customer, you are in the best position to point out areas
that
> > need attention. Our goal is to provide consistent and accurate
> > information to our passengers at all times. I am truly sorry that in

> > this instance you did not receive the information you expected and
> > should have received regarding transit VISA information for your
> > girlfriend. Feedback like yours will help us improve our
reservations
> > process and customer experience. Please know I will be sharing your
> > comments with our Reservations leadership team for internal follow
up.
> >
> > Also, I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your query about
> > recording telephone calls. While we do record a sampling of
> reservation
> > calls for training purposes, the tapes are not logged by customer
> name.
> > As such, we are unable to locate the specific call mentioned. Again,
I
>
> > apologize for the discrepancy you described.
> >
> > I am truly sorry your girlfriend was unable to travel as planned.
> > Although we are unable to honor your request to pay for a ticket on
> > another airline, I would appreciate the opportunity to further
assist
> > you. I am prepared to authorize a refund of the unused ticket.
Please
> > know that some fares, such as bulk fares, cannot be refunded. In
order
>
> > to review the ticket and make this exception, I will need the
> following
> > information.
> >
> > - Name of passenger
> > - Date of travel, flights, and ticket number
> >
> > Thank you for writing. I will be in touch with you as soon as I have

> > all the necessary information.
> >
> > Sincerely,

I have marked in bold the killer statement that proves without any doubt that Delta are saying that they have done something wrong. Finally, someone from Delta is not blaming me for their ****-up. And to offer a full refund is further proof that Delta feel that they have done something wrong. So why don't you put that in your pipe and smoke it PHX, and you can take your side-kick Silent Bob with you. The comments that PHX have made throughout this debacle have been about as welcome as a fart in an astronaut suit, the bloke's an absolute disgrace. He should be banned from this site.
The reason I didn't post this 2 days ago is because I've been posting emails back and forth with Delta ever since, saying how much of a relief it is to have someone from Delta say that they are to blame and to have them apologise for it. But I have also told them about the unpresidented amount of stress we have faced and also that I will not now return til Christmas Day. I have asked them to to help me out with an earlier ticket. I thought since they have actually admitted the blame they would be able to help me find an earlier flight. However, upon receiving a reply from them just now I believe that their kindness has stopped with the refund.
For me this is unacceptable, as I explained that it was because of their lies (which they have now admitted to) that I am in this situation now, and I feel that because they are accepting the blame they should not only accomodate me with an earlier flight but they should also pay for the other financial inconveniences that I have incurred.
However, although I do feel that Delta have only gone a small way to compensate me for their disgusting treatment of me, I do also feel that I have come out of this victorious against one of the biggest bullies I have ever had to face.

A HUGE THANK YOU TO JIMWORCS FOR PROVIDING ME WITH THE EMAIL ADDRESSES OF THE DELTA EXECS! YOU ARE A STAR!

Chris, you should now check if there is a low cost small claims process in Argentina. This email does accept that you were misled by the Customer Service Agent. I believe you could have a good case for consequential damages. If you are ableto file a claim and feel that you could pursue that avenue, I would not take the refund.

Jim I would love to take them to a small claims but I don't have much confidence in the legal system here. Have you ever been to Argentina?
Plus I'm not sure how much energy I have left to keep on fighting. I should have been back in England since the 5th and enjoying the sites of Dublin, Rome, Edinburgh, London, Stratford, not to mention the almighty Newcastle.
I would love to take Delta to court and believe that I could take them to the cleaners since they are now shouldering the blame but I need the money for the refund to pay for a new ticket for her. As things stand I'm still flying home with Delta which makes me sick just thinking about it! But what I'm trying to come up with is the cheapest possible option to get her to Manchester on Christmas Eve where she can stay in a hotel for the night and then be picked up by myself and my bro on Christmas morning before driving back to Newcastle (thanks so much Delta for making this the most inconvenient Christmas ever). Iberia would have been a good option but I notice that the carrier from Heathrow to Manchester is BA so that's that one out the window! I checked out Lufthansa and I think this is about my best option as some of the others are ridiculous. I'm still paying more as it is Christmas time and I can again thank Delta for putting even greater holes in my pockets. And I dread to think how much an airport hotel will cost me on Christmas Eve!
I would love to take them to court Jim, but I need the money now. Otherwise, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to wipe the floor with the lying scumbags.

Ok, well good luck. The BA strike is off, so if the Iberia/BA option is still on the cards, you might try that. Why fly BA from LHR to MAN? BA also have flights from LHR to NCL. Lufty is a good choice, and I think they have a Frankfurt/Newcastle flight. I remember seeing a Lufthansa when I flew to Newcastle on a regular basis. So do AF, which saves the nightmare journey to Manchester on Christmas morning.

We have the best chance for years of a white christmas this year. It is snowing now and the forecasters say this is the best prospect of a white christmas in 10 years, especially in Northern England and Scotland... so at least it should look like a postcard!

Jim, I still stuck with Delta so I still will end up in Manchester on Xmas Day so the trip would have to be made even if my gf can get a flight to Newcastle. Plus she has never met my parents before so she wants me to be there when she finally does.
White Xmas eh? Typical that isn't it, especially since I have to get from Manchester to Newcastle!! This trip is proving to be one disaster after another and I still haven't left Buenos Aires yet!!:) I'm sure my Argie gf will apreciate a white Xmas though as it is always red hot here at Xmas time!

But i agree with phx, the fault lies with the OP. You can't trust the airlines for info unless it pertains to their flight... and even then you have to be just a bit wary. Silent Bob quote.

Really Bob, the fault lies with me? Then can you explain why Delta sent me this email?

As our customer, you are in the best position to point out areas that
need attention. Our goal is to provide consistent and accurate
information to our passengers at all times. I am truly sorry that in
this instance you did not receive the information you expected and
should have received regarding transit VISA information for your
girlfriend.

And if the fault lies with me then why are Delta giving me a full refund?
Hmmmmm strange that isn't it

Because as someone traveling internationally it is incumbent on them to be aware of any and all rules and laws of entry to any country they visit or transit. Ignorance of a law does not excuse not being in compliance with said law. If she plans to continue to travel abroad she needs to be more diligent in learning these things. Perhaps this whole situation can be written off to a learning experience. Now it's time to move on and stop pointing your finger at the airline. Sure their mis-information was a contributing factor but your, and her, lack of follow-up to verify that information was just as much to blame. Quote from PHX

As our customer, you are in the best position to point out areas that
need attention. Our goal is to provide consistent and accurate
information to our passengers at all times. I am truly sorry that in
this instance you did not receive the information you expected and
should have received regarding transit VISA information for your
girlfriend. Quote from Delta

Still pointing the blame at me PHX? You are correct with one thing, in that if I hadn't believed what the airline had told me and looked for the travel info myself, I would have found out that a visa was required. But why should I doubt what the airline is telling me? I am the consumer. I should be able to believe them and if they tell me lies they should be to blame, not me. This was the whole point of my arguement but you just didn't want to see it from my perspective did you, just like Delta didn't want to either, initially. Delta now state that they are sorry that I didn't receieve the info that I expected and SHOULD have received. Yes I should have received it. And if I had received it this mess wouldn't have happened would it?

So it wasn't my fault that this happened. What grounds did I have for calling the airline I was flying with a liar who was purposefully trying to ruin my Christmas holiday. What reason would I have for thinking they wanted to misinform me for no reason? And why would I then see the need to look on the American Embassy website to see if a transit visa was required for the US when I had absolutely zero knowledge about this rule??

I understand that if I had looked up this info and double checked to see if they were lying to me, I would have found out that I did need the visa, but this isn't the point here, the point is that they have admitted to me that they were negligent in not giving me this information, that they should have given me this information.

This rather belittles your silly little childish comment to me re looking in the mirror and admitting that I am partially to blame doesn't it? Delta have stated that they should have given me this information (God knows I had to drag it out of the lying toerags at the 25th time of asking!) and because they didn't my girlfriend hasn't been able to fly, and this is why they are giving her a FULL refund.

What I can do now is look in the mirror and say to myself that Delta are the worst company I have ever dealt with in all my life and have ruined my Christmas holidays, have ruined my girlfriend's first holiday outside of her country, have left me severely out of pocket, but at least now they are admitting that they are fully to blame, not me, them.

Chrisal wrote...

I'm trying to come up with is the cheapest possible option to get her to Manchester on Christmas Eve

If I read your posts correctly Delta is now offering to refund your gf's ticket. At this point I would think the price of a new ticket would border on a "walk-up" fare (high cost.) If the latter is true, the only reason I can think of to stay with Delta would be frequent flyer miles (to me most frequent flyer programs are worthless piles of c**p.)

Air Canada is about as bad as some US-based carriers, but last time I checked they do fly EZE to Toronto (one-stop in Santiago) where your gf can connect onto MAN. Also, unlike the US, I don't believe Canada requires a transit visa. However, one should, obviously, check with the Canadian Embassy.

From the Star Alliance portal to IATA's TimaticWeb application:

A visa is definitely required to transit Canada given the OP's nationality/citizenship. Wether or not that visa can be obtained in a timely manner or even at the point of transit is another issue and the Canadian consulate in EZE should be contacted.

Now he can blame you, Butch , for the mis-information!

Butch I've already bought her ticket. In the end I bought it with BA which is pricey to start with but with it being the 23rd it is even more. I wanted her to go with Iberia or Lufthansa but she is so scared and paranoid that she will not get through customs (the Spanish are particularly terrible with Argentinians apparently) that I went for BA. The ticket is much more than the original Delta ticket but at least it goes direct to Heathrow and then she will take another flight to Newcastle which is where I live and my parents can pick her up on Christmas Eve at 11am. Not bad eh!
My story is a little more desperate with Delta. As my ticket is with them I unfortunately have to fly with them. After the 5th of December which was the date we were supposed to fly, I spent the next week and a half fighting Delta for compensation, and when I decided that they weren't going to help me in any way (a few days before I learnt they were going to refund my gfs ticket) I went to the office to ask for the next flight home. They told me that they had nothing til the 23rd which just made me hate them even more!
So we both fly on the 23rd but my gf will arrive in Newcastle on the 24th. I will be in Atlanta on the 24th from 7 in the morning to 8 in the evening more or less! I have to wait about 12 hours for my flight to manchester which gets in at 8am on Christmas Day. I don't even live in Manchester! I live in newcastle so my poor brother is going to have to get up on Christmas Day at 4 in the morning and drive all the way to Manchester and then to Newcastle.
Delta may have given my girlfriend a refund but they have absolutely screwed up my Christmas! Hopefully I'll get back for 12 or 1ish for dinner!
I asked them to help me and get me home sooner. I thought they would help since they admitted they were to blame so I wrote to the same person who is giving the refund, but thye refuse to help any further. I also mentioned all the money I have lost this month with fines for being in the country longer than expected, taxis, lost flights to Dublin, Rome, Edinburgh, and London plus tickets to shows and football matches. This was also ignored.
I am extatic with the refund but am furious that they will not acknowledge that their lies has left me severely out of pocket, and with an extremely difficult Christmas not just for me but for my family too.

Also, unlike the US, I don't believe Canada requires a transit visa. However, one should, obviously, check with the Canadian Embassy. Quote from Butch

A visa is definitely required to transit Canada given the OP's nationality/citizenship. Wether or not that visa can be obtained in a timely manner or even at the point of transit is another issue and the Canadian consulate in EZE should be contacted.
Now he can blame you, Butch , for the mis-information! Quote from PHX

Ok so Butch isn't 100 per cent with his info but big deal it is only advise and he doesn't work for the airline who I am going to buy my flight with. And anyway he covers his back by saying one should check with the Canadian Embassy. If Delta had said the same thing, then their misinformation wouldn't have mattered because I would have looked at the US Embassy website. Butch has covered his back, Delta didn't, and that is why they are going to give me a full refund.
So, no PHX, I won't be blaming Butch for this misinformation (mainly because it is irrelevant now as I've already bought her a ticket home with BA) but also as it was only advise and he did fully cover himself by telling me to check on the Canada website to make sure).
Unlike Delta who gave me information (not advise) that was critically incorrect and didn't back themselves up by telling me to double check on the US website.
Even now PHX, you continue to try to play the "shift the blame from Delta game" even though they have sent me an email stating how sorry they were to have not given information that I expected and should have received. They are giving me a full refund, mate, what more proof do you want that they are admitting they are to blame?

Phx,
I have read your entry and links and cannot find anywhere were it says a Transit Visa is needed for Canada for the route proposed. My reading of it is that the passenger must be able to provide sufficient documentation to prove intended destination and sufficient funds to get there. Where exactly does it say you need a transit visa?

Chrisal,
I am glad you have got it sorted. Pretty sure you will have a white christmas.. it is thick snow now and cold artic weather predicted for the next 4 days...

When you plug in all of the required information and click "Get Information" the passport and visa requirements are displayed in two sections. The first is "Passport and Visa Information: Transit" and the second is "Passport and Visa Information: Destinations." If you select an Argentinian citizen embarking in Argentina, transiting Canada, with a destination of the UK it clearly states under the first section ""Passport and Visa Information: Transit - Canada (CA); Information: Normal Passports - Visa Required."

Furthermore, there is this information from the official government website of Citizenship and Immigration Canada:

This confirms that the TimaticWeb information is current and correct.

And for future reference, a Google search using the following key words, "transiting united states visa requirements" will produce a link to this US State Department web page providing all of the information one would need. A few clicks and one would see that Argentina is currently not a participant in the US Visa Waiver Program and therefore would require a visa even if only transiting a US airport with an immediate departure to another country.

All of the above information took me all of 15-20 minutes to track down on the internet. Just think if a certain individual had simply taken the same amount of time to do the same they probably would have been in the UK by now!

And what exactly does any of this have to do with the point of my story? Absolutely nothing! It is a bit like saying that if I had chosen the correct lottery numbers I would be a millionaire by now!
The point of my story is that Delta lied to me and as a result I couldn't fly. Furthermore, Delta have admitted full responsibility for their wrongdoing and as a result I will get a full refund.
What you are saying has no reference to the fact I have been lied to by the industry that you appear to want to have babies with.
Just to think that if Delta hadn't lied to me a certain individual would be in the UK by now.
Delta have admitted that they should have provided me with the correct information. They are going to give me a full refund. Fact! I have won this arguement! Fact! You have lost! Fact! Delta are big enough to admit they were to blame. I don't expect you to be man enough to admit it and to be quite frank I couldn't care less.

Lying implies intention. They did not intentionally mislead you. It was the result of a possibly under-trained agent who didn't know how to access the correct information or the result of an experienced agent who either plugged in the wrong information or who didn't completely or correctly read the output of the rules that were displayed. In either case it is a traveler's responsibility to know what the requirements are and there is only one reliable source for those rules which I have posted above.

There is a legal term called due diligence. Look it up. Also re-read the wording of the response from Delta:

There is no clear admission of guilt here. Even so it does not excuse you from doing what is necessary on your end. As I said before airline telephone reservations agents are not immigration specialists. I stand by my statement that it only took me 15 minutes using Google to find the wealth of information that I posted. Information that had you taken the same 15 minutes to research would have resulted in you avoiding the whole situation you're in now. Does this completely absolve the airline of blame? Hell no. Their failure to disseminate the proper information was more than a majority contributory factor. However there is still an obligation on your part (due diligence) which by your inaction was not fulfilled. Therefore you are still, even though in the most minute way, partially to blame. Why is it so hard for you to step up and admit that had you done this one simple thing differently things would be entirely different now? Hopefully you'll use this as a learning experience and also learn to accept some blame for situations in which you had at least some control over the outcome.

Our goal is to provide consistent and accurate information to our passengers at all times. I am truly sorry that in this instance you did not receive the information you expected and should have received regarding transit VISA information for your girlfriend - Delta quote

There is no clear admission of guilt here - PHX quote

For one thing, they are apologising. For another, they are saying that it is their goal to provide consistent and accurate information to our passengers at all time, and that in this instance I did not receive the info I expected and should have received re transit info for my gf. This is an extremely clear admission of guilt. They start by saying what is their goal and then continue by saying that this goal hasn't been met. They haven't done what they should have done. GUILTY!!!

I am pleased that you now see this as a "majority contributing factor". However, even though the airline that my girlfriend is going to fly with has now told her that she will need a passport and a return ticket (and bearing in mind that she has never flew before) you now expect her to turn into Magnum PI and do some detective work looking up words like "due diligence". She's not a lawyer you know. She took the airlines info and carried on with preparations for the rest of her trip. She shouldn't have to check the story of one of the biggest airlines to see if they had given her incorrect information. It's a bit like saying that I've called up the bank to see what interest rates they've got, now I'm going to do some detective work of my own by finding all these interest rates for myself (just incase they were lying to me).

I stand by my statement that it only took me 15 minutes using Google to find the wealth of information that I posted. Information that had you taken the same 15 minutes to research would have resulted in you avoiding the whole situation you're in now. PHX quote

Yes PHX, obviously if we had looked up this information, we wouldn't find ourselves in this mess that we are in now. This is obvious but as I've said time and again, why should my gf turn into a private investigator when the airline has already told her what she needs. This PI work was reserved for the UK embassy website. What you have to somehow try to do here is to try and put yourselves in the shoes of people who have never flown in their lives. They don't have a clue about flying. Having said that, even more experienced flyers wouldn't even know about this. I've recounted this story many times to loads of people from many countries, and not one knows about this special transit visa for your special country.
If you try and put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never flown before (which I know will be very difficult for you but please try). Now this person doesn't have a clue about anything so they ask the airline what they need to travel and they aren't told about a visa, only about the return ticket and passport. Now do you really think that this inexperienced person who has never flown before, is going to have any grounds for doubting the word of the airline company. Why should they think that they haven't been given correct information.

What I would like to see is for Delta to bring in a model answer for questions like "What do I need to travel?" and this is "We cannot give this information. Go to the Embassy website and find it yourself." This is perfect because the call centre worker, no matter how braindead, cannot get this wrong, and it also puts all the emphasis on the passenger to do the detective work themselves. As you say it is easy enough to find, but only if you have been told to find it. If my gf had only been told this then she would have found it also. But why would she know to find it if she hadn't been told to look for it. Your arguement says that she should have checked this info herself even though she had been given the information already. If you put yourself in her shoes would you still go on the internet to check if you need a transit visa when you have never even heard of a transit visa for the US. She would need to be a mindreader to think about checking for something that she has no knowledge about.

Why is it so hard for you to step up and admit that had you done this one simple thing differently things would be entirely different now? - PHX quote

PHX it is very simple for me to admit this. Obviously yes if we had done this one little thing then we would have found out about the transit visa. But I hope the "put yourself in her shoes" exercise which I described to you above goes so way into explaining why she didn't do this one little thing. If Delta had told her to find this info out for herself then yes she would have looked it up.

Hopefully you'll use this as a learning experience and also learn to accept some blame for situations in which you had at least some control over the outcome. - PHX quote

Damn right I'll see this as a learning experience. I'll never believe another word these lying bastards from the airlines ever tell me again! And from now on I will find out all of the relevant information for myself.
But with all due resepect, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and although you may think that I should accept some of the blame for situations in which I had at least some control over, I do not feel that if I had to go back a few months and repeat this whole process without knowing what I know now, I would have done anything differently. Yes, if I knew then what I know now, then I would have certainly done a huge amount of things differently. Hindsight is not something we have in the past though, is it?

Still not getting it. Sad.

No I think it is you that isn't getting it. You bore me! Goodbye!

phx.....it is clear that chrisal (and his gf) are not experienced flyers, they dont know the ins and outs of the crazy airline and documentation industry....as chris said before his gf has never been out of the country.....you really cant expect nonfrequent flyers to look for info that they are told that isnt needed, delta told them the wrong info and the majority of people (esp new to flying) would follow that and not question it....he took the initiative and asked, recieved the wrong info and did what others would do-take it as truth since you would expect that the airlines would know that sort of info

could he have looked? yes did he believe he needed to? no because the info given to him did he know where to look? mayb does he know what to do next time? hopefully did delta mess up? big time

Phx,
I think it is YOU who is not getting it. The airline had a simple solution... do not give this information to the customer when asked. Point them to the appropriate website or consulate. To suggest that every transaction we have with a business has to be independently verified is ridiculous. Commerce would come to a grinding halt if every time we undertook a transaction we had to independently verify everything they told us is true. If a company sells you a service or product, you should be able to rely on what they tell you relating to your use of that product or service. In this case, the passenger specifically asked the airline if a visa was required.

Your criticism would be valid if the passenger had not asked and was blaming the airline for not letting them know. What makes this different is the customer asked the airline if a visa was required to use their service. They were told no. This misrepresented the situation and is not the customers fault.

To call something a lie does not automatically imply intent; but he is angry at having his whole christmas plans destroyed by the error of the airline and their failure to properly resolve the problem. Your determination to poke a stick at the victim is sad.

Thank you very much Mars and Jim for understanding the whole point of this story. It is simple enough and I'm sure that you PHX, fully understand the point too.

What I find extremely sad is that you, PHX, refuse to acknowledge the situation from the point of view of an inexperienced flyer, as I have asked you to do time and again. Look at the posts recently written by Mars and Jim. They have hit the nail on the head. If you had the willing to do the same you would see it as well.

You just can't take it that Delta have admitted they were in the wrong. And you can't take it that they are going to give me my money back. I know Delta are to blame, Jim and Mars know Delta are to blame, even Delta have admitted Delta are to blame.

The only person that won't admit it is you. This makes you not only small minded but extremely very very sad!

Had you actually read the the part of your response I quoted you would have realized that my comment pertained to your insistance that when you initially called to arrange travel the Delta agent lied to you. As I said before a lie is an intentional means of deception. I highly douibt the agent lied to you for the purpose of causing you all of this grief and trouble.

your comment about me being "small minded" was not appreciated either and has been reported.

@114 replies I believe this is the longest thread to date. I'd have to recount disregarding the post that should have been deleted and the multiple back-to-back posts by the OP. After those are taken into account it would proably be under 100.

Had you actually read the the part of your response I quoted you would have realized that my comment pertained to your insistance that when you initially called to arrange travel the Delta agent lied to you. As I said before a lie is an intentional means of deception. I highly douibt the agent lied to you for the purpose of causing you all of this grief and trouble. - PHX quote

Damn right I'll see this as a learning experience. I'll never believe another word these lying bastards from the airlines ever tell me again! - my original quote

After all I had written in the previous message, asking for you to see things from an inexperienced passengers perspective, you ignored my request and simply responded by sending me this message containing my quote and saying "Still not getting it. Sad."

So instead of doing anything that I had suggested, you know want to create a side arguement on the definition of what a lie is. It has little relevance to my story. If you want to clutch at straws perhaps Delta didn't actually lie to me. My girlfriend asked what she would need to travel and was given incorrect information. But it was hardly the truth either, and Delta have admitted they were at fault. So if you want to clutch at straws this may not strictly be a lie, why don't we call it NEGLIGENT INFORMATION WITH CATASTROPHIC CONSEQUENSES?

But if you had cared to take in anything else that has happened to me since perhaps you would understand why I feel they are liars. For example -
1. when the manager told me to call the customer care number and when I did I found out it was a reservations number and there wasn't an actual customer care number that I could call.
2. when I tried to ring another customer care number they gave me telling me it was freephone and finding out it was a US number, therefore making it impossible for me to call
3. when the manager gave me his own personal number to call which I have tried on several occasions and each time the phone has gone dead without anyone answering it.
4. when the manager initially promised to help me find an earlier flight on a higher tariff it it meant I could get home sooner, I found out that this had been lies because when I went to the office to ask them to help me with this they refused and said that the manager hadn't actually authorised this even though he had shook my hand and given me his word
5. when the manager promised there would not be a charge for changing my ticket, I found this to be lies as the girl in the office said that I would have to pay 100 pounds to choose it. When I questioned this she said the manager had never authorised this. More lies.

If you really want to know PHX, my reference to never believing another word that those lying bastards tell me was in association with not only the original bad info they gave my girlfriend but also all of the lies that has followed. Do YOU still not get it?

And instead of looking at the point of my arguement, all you can do is to continue to poke stupid little jibes that serve no purpose to this arguement. So yes I fully stand by my earlier remarks about you being smallminded and extremely very very sad, but now I would probably call you ridiculous as well because this is how you are starting to look.

Report me all you like. However, you will find that it was you who called me sad first, making your complaint a little sad if you don't mind me saying!

Phx:
The issue of whether Chrisal was correct in using the word lie is a sideshow: if we want to get pedantic, one of the dictionary definitions is

to express what is false; convey a false impression

Under this definition, intent is not required. However, irrespective of the intent in the initial call, the subsequent dealings with Delta have been less than honest too.

This is one of those situations in which you are defending something which even the airline didn't try to defend. Furthermore, it appears that mars and I are agreeing... a rare occurance!

Maybe, just maybe, you have got this one wrong? Is it possible?

Welcome back anyway Phx, and good luck with the stand up on Wednesday.

Can't this be taken to private messages? It was interesting in the beginning but it's getting tiresome seeing petty bickering. OP had a complaint, caught some flack from posters here, got some advice and then got a refund if he desired. Case closed. Next......

Troy,
We are miles past that.. .it is about Phx admitting he got it wrong!! It is a test to see if he has an ounce of himility!! That is why there are so many posts...

Might I remind everyone of my initial post on this thread? Perhaps it was forgotten:

Exactly!! ~ That is the bit that is wrong...the OP, someone who has never flown before, booked over the phone with airline. They asked the airline if a visa was needed for the service being provided and the airline said no. Why should the OP have been aware of this? They had never dealt with an airline before, bought an air ticket before or travelled abroad before.

The airline had the option to say " it is your responsibility to check on visa's" but they chose instead to offer advice. In the event the advice was wrong.

The airline has now admitted this was wrong. They have acknowledged this by giving a full refund and by apologising for the mis-information.

The question now is, can you do the same thing? Or are you so rigid and inflexible that you cannot conceive of a situation in which you have misjudged a situation and should admit that you called this one WRONG.

I still feel that it is the traveler's responsibility to research (not just take the word of a telephone ticketing agent that probably works for a 3rd party call centre in Manila) through proper government channels what is required of them in the way of passports, visas, inoculations, etc. for their given itinerary. The fact that a traveler is young or inexperienced doesn't excuse them. I have already said that most of the blame lies with the airline due to one of their representatives giving out, without malice or ill intent, wrong information.

Anyway this thread should have been shut down and the OPs posts deleted when he assailed me with expletives and threats of injury. That's all I'm going to say at this time. If you don't like it then so be it. We haven't always agreed and this will just be one of those times. No hard feelings.

I'm in agreeance with PHX on this one. Though the airlines did say to the OP's g/f that they didn't need a visa, It was mentioned before by JR Orlando that maybe there was a communication error in how the OP's g/f might have asked about the visa, which would make sense in the answer she got. It's always been my belief since my brazil incident that we as passengers should look into our own travel requirements, nor does it hurt to check multiple sources rather than just accept one source. Did Delta make a mistake? Not exactly, but then again we don't know exactly what was asked nor do we know exactly what was said because this is from a 3rd person. He may have bought the ticket, but didn't do much to help research the visa.

But a refund was given and all is right with the world.

Thank you very much Mars and Jim for understanding the whole point of this story. It is simple enough and I'm sure that you PHX, fully understand the point too.

What I find extremely sad is that you, PHX, refuse to acknowledge the situation from the point of view of an inexperienced flyer, as I have asked you to do time and again. Look at the posts recently written by Mars and Jim. They have hit the nail on the head. If you had the willing to do the same you would see it as well.

You just can't take it that Delta have admitted they were in the wrong. And you can't take it that they are going to give me my money back. I know Delta are to blame, Jim and Mars know Delta are to blame, even Delta have admitted Delta are to blame.

The only person that won't admit it is you. This makes you not only small minded but extremely very very sad! Earlier quote from myself

Read this one again PHX. You just can't stand the fact that I'm right and you are wrong. And what really gets to you is that Delta are giving me my money back. You can argue the toss all you want now mate, but fact is I have won! FACT! Delta have even admitted they were at fault. What makes you even more pathetic then I thought you were is that you can't admit it. Throughout this story I have asked you time and time again to see this from the position of a girl who has zero experience with flying, to take on board all the information that I have given you, and to think to yourself, what you would do in that position. Mars answered this one brilliantly in post 111 I think it was.

But all you continue doing is picking up on silly little side issues to distract from the issue in hand. This thread could easily have finished a long time ago if it wasn't for your inability to look at this from another person's perspective. I'm sure you aren't really a stupid person, I think you are just getting off on this, laughing at the misfortune of others. It certainly worked in the beginning as I'm sure you know. But we have come full circle now mate! Delta have even admitted they were wrong, they say they should have provided me with the correct info. You can go on saying, that is as maybe, but you should have checked the website anyway, but by saying that are you really putting yourself in my gf's shoes. I mean why would she even check if this visa was required for the US, when she didn't even know it existed? She did all the relevant checks for the UK as this is the country she would be staying. Someone who has never left her own country before would never dream of doing this unless Delta had simply said "Not our job miss, find out for yourself."
I really cannot put it any differently for you to understand PHX, but until the day comes when you do want to open your eyes up to what happened, I'm afraid circles is all we will be going round in. Jim can see this and so can Mars and so can any person who I have told this story to. For the love of God, even Delta saw what they did wrong and apologised with the refund.
You don't have a leg to stand on and you never did. You have purposefully refused to comment on what you would have done had you actually put yourself in the shoes of a girl who has never flown before and wasn't guided to the info required. If you actually did this we might actually get somewhere. Until you do though, you continue to show yourself up as this extremely sad and twisted smallminded individual.
But I think we all know what this is really about though don't we?

Anyway this thread should have been shut down and the OPs posts deleted when he assailed me with expletives and threats of injury -PHX

What this really bolis down to is that you are still crying over those comments I made about you when you started to stick the boot in at my expense. You were so upset you even started a poll about it, which I found most amusing! Unfortunately instead of learning from it, all you have used my thread for is to continue to stick the boot in with your spiteful little digs. The fact that you continue to purposefully miss the point of all of this is further testimony, that you are using this thread to wind me up.
However, your silly little juvenile plan has severely backfired because I have actually done what I'm sure you never thought I would be able to do, and that is to get Delta to admit they were wrong, and not only that, but I have got a full refund. This must really stick in your throat, mustn't it PHX? Case closed!:):D:o

From reading this I can only imagine two possible explanations; either you have been smoking too much of that strong marijuana this morning and your brain has turned to mush, or that you are sleeping with PHX. I would probably guess a bit of both to be fair!

I find it quite incredible that after all this time you can just sit there and write "Did Delta make a mistake, not exactly"????!!!!!!

EH??????? You want to leave the whisky alone too mate! So my girlfriend asks what she needed to travel and she received the response, "passport and return ticket". No mention of a visa here. Now roll forward to the 5th of December and my gf is told she cannot board a plane because she doesn't have a transit visa. Now I ask you again, DID DELTA MAKE A MISTAKE? Even PHX admits that Delta have made a mistake here, that's why I think you should be laying off the weed and whisky for a while.

No I think the purpose of your message is to brand me a liar. Yes JR did touch on this, and yes I supplied the info that he requested. You can go back to the post and read it again if you wish.

we don't know exactly what was asked nor do we know exactly what was said because this is from a 3rd person - BOB

So what Bob is implying here is that there is no proof as to what actually took place and therefore all that I have said can just be discredited as a heap of bull****. So if that is the case why don't we shut down this site as there is no proof as to what any of the other hapless passengers are saying either. Perhaps they are lying through their front teeth too eh Bob?

The likes of you and PHX really are pathetic. To try and discredit my story at this late point of the day Bob, by saying that it is a bunch of lies, is as cheap a trick as some of your boyfriend's. I told you exactly what was said. If you choose not to believe it that is fine but you are wasting your time on a site like this as ikt is full of people writing their experiences. There is not one shred of evidence that anything actually happened. The two of you deserve eachother. You just cannot take it that I have won this one hands down. And your persistence to continue with your jibes is actually very sad to me as I didn't know people like you existed. However, I have never spent so much time on the internet before, so now I know!

Why don't you and PHX do yourselves a favour eh? Take a look in the mirror and say to yourselves, "Chrisal is right, we are wrong, Delta are giving him a full refund, all of these cheap tricks we are pulling out the bag aren't working, we've lost". Then you can get on with your lives!

Why don't you use that in your stand-up PHX? You'll have them rolling around on the floor!!!!!! Hilarious!!!:):D:o:):o:D:D:o:):o

I wouldn't say lying through their teeth, more like exxagerating their situation to get sympathy.... much like what you're doing? It's cool that you're getting a victory, but there is no admission of guilt by Delta. And the only way you can really count this as a victory is if you got everything you demanded and i don't see that happening.

I don't find it incredible, they didn't make a mistake. I still say it was communication and I'm stickin to it.

Oh and as for the smoking marijuanna? Sorry Bob doesn't play with that and I'm dunno how PHX looks, probably a handsome man, but I'm all about the ladies their Chris. Whiskey and women are my two biggest vices and only on the weekends *wink*

No one called you a liar... is this some kind of admission on YOUR part? hehehehe

No way! I heard if you say your name in a mirror, the ghost of O.J. Simpson will come out to get you... and he's not dead so what does that say about that? lol

I find it quite incredible that after all this time you can just sit there and write "Did Delta make a mistake, not exactly"????!!!!!!
I don't find it incredible, they didn't make a mistake. I still say it was communication and I'm stickin to it. - Bob

So Bob what you are saying here is that Delta did not make a mistake because you think that my girlfriend did not ask the correct question? And if you do believe this then you do not believe I am telling the truth because my story quite clearly states that my girlfriend asked specifically for the journey from BA to Manchester via Atlanta. Therefore you are calling me a liar because you do not believe what I am telling you happened.

The likes of you and PHX really are pathetic. To try and discredit my story at this late point of the day Bob, by saying that it is a bunch of lies, is as cheap a trick as some of your boyfriend's.
No one called you a liar... is this some kind of admission on YOUR part? hehehehe - Bob

So you aren't calling me a liar now? But you don't believe that my girlfriend asked a specific question to Delta which I have stated in my story. Come on Bob, how can you say that you aren't calling me a liar when you don't think my girlfriend really said what she did?

It is ridiculous. So are you trying to say that I am not a liar, but it is just my story that is lies. It appears that the only way you can still pin the blame on me is to say that my story is a lie and that my girlfriend didn't ask what I said she did. Truly pathetic mate! You stick to the internet mate because you haven't got a chance in the real world!!!

I truly question the purpose of this website if you can come on here and simply say, no I don't believe you, that's not what happened! No this is what happened! What is the point of having a complaint website when idiots come on and say that they don't believe me. This could be the basis of any arguement, changing parts of the story to fit your individual fantasy thus discrediting the passenger.

What is the point of a site like this if you can simply turn round and say, no sorry mate, you are lying, your girlfriend didn't say that, she said this instead. You stick to your story pal, and I'll stick to mine. Your arguement (branding me a liar) is a joke Bob, just like you.

I most certainly can see this "from the point of view of an inexperienced" (and may I be so bold to add immature) "flyer," [sic] (just to let you know "flier" is one who flies while "flyer" is a piece of paper, a tract, or pamphlet) and I realize that due to that inexperience and immaturity you are trying to blame everyone and everything but yourself when you know there was a possibility to have avoided the whole situation had you taken the time to simply do some research or even ask someone who has traveled to or through the United States recently what is required rather than take the word of an outsourced call centre agent making the equivalent of around $2 USD per hour. (Yes, I realize that was a terrible run-on sentence but it was done so for effect. The whole "blue in the face" thing because I feel this OP has probably had many lectures from his mum 'till she's "blue in the face.")



You keep equating the fact that Delta refunded your ticket as proof of admission of wrong-doing. Guess what? I've had two non-refundable Delta tickets refunded before. Want to know why? Because I was persistent and I think they just wanted me to "go away" rather than have to deal with the issue (and me) again. Notice I used the word persistent here. Never rude, never raised my voice and never made any sort of threat, not even to "never fly Delta again" and always treated every employee with respect, dignity and approached it from a "what can you do for me" perspective and not making specific demands that "you do this or else..." Even though in both situations I was partly to blame I was able to convince at least one Delta employee that the company was at least partly to blame as well and the resolution in both cases was a refund.


I think I can state, without any argument from you or anyone else, that you are guilty of the same. So as I'm guilty of picking out what may seem to you like minutiae and building a discussion around it I will jump to this:



There you said it yourself. She did not even know (the requirement of a visa) existed. She, and by proxy you, did nothing to inform yourselves of the full requirements with respect to travel documents for her journey. You may have asked the $2 per hour agent what the visa requirements for entering the UK were (an for an Argentinian national whose sole purpose is visitation/tourism there is no advance visa requirement) and got an answer however as a UK citizen you may have already been familiar with that part of the equation. BOTH of you (the Delta agent and you and/or your GF) failed to ask what if anything was necessary for her transit. You both, I believe, assumed that since she wasn't actually entering the United States that a visa wasn't necessary. Unfortunately when you found out this was wrong it was too late to do anything about it.

Well of course they are going to see things your way because you are not telling the story to a completely dis-involved anonymous third party. Do you really think your friends, acquaintances and family are not going to side with you against the evil Delta Airlines?

And, once again, you are equating the refund of the ticket with an apology. You just simply can't make that jump. All they apologized for was that an agent who is not even on their payroll possibly gave you incomplete information. There was no absolute admission of guilt or liability. Companies apologize all the time even when they know they are right and the customer is wrong. It's called customer service and although it is a bit lacking at Delta they still get it right more often than not.

So now I realize why you referred to me as a "paraplegic." Suddenly that post now makes sense!

If I was a young inexperienced traveler I would have sought out the advice of someone more experienced in international travel and asked them if what was told to me by the $2 per hour outsourced agent was really all I needed to travel to the UK via the USA. Of course when IO was her age the "internet" as we know it today was in it's infancy but if I were that age now I would have done at least a little research on my own. But then again I've always been one to question things and make sure, especially on the occasion of such an important trip, that I had "crossed all of the 'T's and dotted the 'I's."

Not a single tear was shed. And I find it interesting that you felt that thread I started with the poll was all about you. You may have been the catalyst however it most certainly was not about you and I suggest you re-read it. Yet another glaring indication of your immaturity.

This is the last time I'll say this. A refund does not equate to an admission of wrongdoing.

Nothing sticks in my throat especially after you stabbed it with the shards of glass from that mirror you broke over my head.

"Mirror, mirror on the wall..."

As you can tell I have no problem dealing with hecklers.

There you said it yourself. She did not even know (the requirement of a visa) existed. She, and by proxy you, did nothing to inform yourselves of the full requirements with respect to travel documents for her journey. You may have asked the $2 per hour agent what the visa requirements for entering the UK were (an for an Argentinian national whose sole purpose is visitation/tourism there is no advance visa requirement) and got an answer however as a UK citizen you may have already been familiar with that part of the equation. BOTH of you (the Delta agent and you and/or your GF) failed to ask what if anything was necessary for her transit. You both, I believe, assumed that since she wasn't actually entering the United States that a visa wasn't necessary. Unfortunately when you found out this was wrong it was too late to do anything about it. PHX quote

No PHX she did not ask what the visa requirements were for entering the UK. She had just asked about a flight from BA to Manchester with a stop in Atlanta. Then she asked what she would need for the trip, ie from BA to Atlanta to Manchester. Nowhere do I suggest that she only asked what she would need to enter the UK, but there you go again twisting my words like an immature adolescent. She asked what she would specifically need for this specific trip. And yes you are right, she had no idea that she would need a transit visa to pass through the US. I had no idea either. I have transited through several countries before and I never needed a transit visa. It is not information that many people know about. Therefore, as the passenger asked specifically what she needed, is it not the call centre agent (who was from Argentina, God knows where you get Manila from, and I think 2 dollars is a bit wide of the mark) who should be informing her, or at least telling her where to find the information herself?

So if you think that by asking the relevant airline company what she would need to fly on a trip from BA to Atlanta to Manchester is and I quote, doing nothing to inform yourselves of the full requirements with respect to travel documents for her journey, then I really don't know what is. Who would you prefer her to ask, the second hand television repair man down the road? Because you are basically saying that it is a waste of time asking the airline. What is the point of having an airline call centre if they aren't going to give you reliable information.

As for your comments regarding spelling, thanks for pointing it out but this site isn't an English Language site, but again shows how you like to deflect away from the point in hand.

I came on this site for a bit of help and support, which I'm pleased to say I found through Jim (who was unbelievably helpful and gave me the email addresses of the directors of Delta), Mars, and Butch. They understand the point of this story and have no trouble in seeing things from another person's perspective. They do not see the need to try to pick apart my story like Bob and now PHX by saying things like, hmm maybe she didn't ask specifically about this or that. By saying that she probably didn't say this or ask specifically about that, what you are trying to do is say that my story is a lie, and at this late stage it is a pretty dirty trick. Do you do this with all OPs who you can't win an arguement against, start to call them liars and say that things didn't really happen?

We are never going to agree, because you think my gf shouldn't have believed the airline when she asked for specific information. Instead you think that she should have looked for some information on the internet (which no inexperienced flyer would ever dream about doing in a month of Sundays) which she had no idea even existed, because she should have naturally thought, "God I'd better check this out as I feel the airline probably didn't give me the correct information. I'm going to be flying with them so what they have probably done is just give me any old answer without even thinking about it just for a bit of a laugh." Why should she have thought this?

Clearly I am not going to shift from my way of thinking (as I feel I am 100 per cent correct), which I think is probably what a normal person would think if they were given this case to look at (I'd actually put my mortgage on it), and PHX and Bob, it is clear that you are not going to shift from your way of thinking. I don't know what your motives are. I know you are both airline sympathizers but I'm not even sure how this works as PHX by his own admission says that you can't trust the airline company that you will be flying with. And if an airline apologises and gives a customer a full refund, how come this can't be classes as a victory? What more do you want, a 5% stake in the company?

I didn't come on this site for a war, I wanted help and support, which I found. It was the other nonsense which I found unacceptable and the fact that now I am in the middle of a court case where my word is being questioned. As we are now trading insults I think it is time to stop. There is no purpose to continue this link anymore. For the past few weeks I have had nothing to do but wait, but my holiday will be starting tomorrow as I am finally flying home. Christmas is only days away, then it will be New Year and then I have the job of showing my beautiful girlfriend round my homeland.:) So my life will be starting again tomorrow. What I can do is leave the likes of PHX and Silent Bob to their pathetic mickey taking, squabbling, and accusations of lies. I would also like to ask the owners of this website to question the role these individuals have played in this thread, ie looking at the knife twisting, spiteful jibes, ridiculing, and now questioning my word, and asking themselves if people like this deserve to be on a website created to help and support the passenger in trouble, because in this case nothing could be further from the truth!

Thanks for the help Jim, you have been a true English gent, and the refund wouldn't have been possible without you. Thanks also to Mars and Butch for their support and thoughtful suggestions. I wish all THREE of you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Not wishing to leave the other two out, I would like to thank PHX for showing me how to spell flier. And Bob, can I thank you for calling me a liar.

Sorry one last thing I forgot to put in my last post.

As you can tell I have no problem dealing with hecklers - PHX quote

If you think they were good comebacks mate, you would get crucified if you were a stand up comedian. You really are as deluded as I thought you were. I mean "mirror mirror on the wall". It's a flipping nursery rhyme pal. Who is your audience going to be, a 5 year old's birthday party?"

I dare you to do a show in Newcastle. You would be crucified!

Isn't this horse dead yet?

No but it has just been sent to the knackers yard to join PHX and Bob! I'm off to pack, farewell!