Better Cancelation Policy
 

I'm the owner of a small business, every dollar counts. We purchased 3 tickets at the same time, about 2 months before having to travel. 1 month in, one of the employees left the company. Air Canada says it's "to bad, so sad". they will not refund the ticket - only the tax portion of the ticket. they will not change the name on the ticket, so that a different employee could travel. If I behaved that way with my clients, I would be out of business!!:mad:

This is another form of legal theft practiced by companies that have a monopoly on a market and the Federal Government should intervene when corporate policies are to steal from the public.

It looks as if you did not read the terms and conditions on the reservation you purchased. It also sounds as if you bought a coach ticket with no flexiability. Air Canada has every right to go by the terms and conditions.
If they decided too bend for you then someone else wants, they would repeat a trip through bankruptcy.

At A320FAN, you must be an airline employee! As only an Airline employee could think that it is fair to steal from people!!

The problem is not that Air Canada can't change the name on the ticket. It's that they won't!!

I never said it is fair to steal from people. Your thinking like the JimW person. I just said when you bought your ticket from Air Canada you agreed to the terms and conditions. Did you bother to look at the terms and conditions? What was the 1st clue you had to see that in fact I am an airline employee. considering that it states that under my screen name.

A320...sometimes I get the impression you don't love me.....

OK, here goes. My position is simple... I get that non-refundable, non changeable means non refundable and non changeable. Trawl back through my posts and see if you can find a posting where I don't acknowledge this....

However, I believe that airlines Terms and Conditions are generally abusive to customers. The airlines operate complex local monopolies and their pricing reflects this. The price penalty for purchasing a flexible ticket is hugely cost prohibitive, and in no way reflects the actual costs of the journey to the airline. This has the effect of channelling the vast majority of purchases into tickets which have T&C's which are abusive and unfair.

To that extent I am sympathetic with the complainant. However, I know that when I buy a restricted ticket, I need to write off the ticket if my plans change. Better regulation would sort this, but there is no effective passenger rights advocacy organisation in the US, except perhaps Flyersrights, and that is run by Kate Hanni, who frankly comes across as a nutter. Airlines pay a fortune in bribes (sorry political donations) to prevent further regulation... I am not optimistic things will change.

Bad Policies
 

@ jimw,

Thanks for understanding our position and putting in words what is wrong with the current airline industry.

@A320, you are correct I did not read the T & C because it is useless to read it! I already know what it is. There is no provision of if I agree or don't. If I don't agree with the T & C, it means I don't fly anywhere - there is no true options - as there is no other major airline with the flights that we require. That is a monopoly and there are rules/laws against things like this, but if the politicians are well greased, they don't see anything.

I completely agree that "as an individual" if I buy a plan ticket and I buy cancelation insurance - I'm covered if I need to cancel - for whatever reason.

However, If I'm a business and I buy the ticket for the employee and I buy trip cancelation and the employee leaves - I'm screwed!! as no insurance company or Airline want to see and understand "this" scenario/problem.

Even better, AirCanada now has a "small business" rewards, the more you buy tickets for your employees, the more reward they say they will give you. AirCanada knows they have a "mint" making machine in getting small business to buy tickets for their employees, because if the employee leaves, AirCanada keeps the money and resells the seat to someone else...So the more they get small business to buy, the more they are guaranteed to steal from them!! Wake up World!! This is dishonesty in its purest form!!

@ Jim W what gave you that impression even though that statement may have a small ring of truth to it. Just as an FYI I treat all my fare paying passengers farely and all the same. Sometimes I whistle to the beat of a different drummer as I usually put myself in someone else's shoes and look at each situation carefully. This causes many disagreements between me and other gate & ticket counter crew.

You could have purchased what is refered to as a flexiable or refundable fare ticket. They are generaly one of the more highly priced tickets, but allow you the most flexiability in travel plans.

That's not much of an option when the cost is more than 2.2x the cost of a standard ticket!! It goes with the improper T & C Policy!!

So what we are being sold is: Buy this ticket for X dollars with a no refund, no change or anything like that or buy this other ticket for 2.2x the price and if you need to change it, then you can.......

So as a policy, what they are saying is that no matter what, if you "think" you are going to need to change the ticket, it will cost you 2x the original ticket......

Not what you would call a fair policy!!

Thats is why the flexiable fares are higher but it give you more options.
think of this onthe terms of buying a car. You are getting what you pay for,
but those extra options come with a higher price then the basic package which is being sold. do expect a car dealer to give you all the higher end bells and whistles for free? You have to pay for them. This is the same/similar situation.

yes, there are nothing is free.;)

The only thing we are promised is death and taxes:D

@ A320,

Actually, Car dealership and manufacturers take better care of their clients than Airlines......

1) Many Car dealership/manufacturer offer full refunds if you are not satisfied with the vehicle!! Did you hear that A320!! It's true!! Chevrolet, Hyundai and others have started this trend......

2) Car dealership/Manufacturers allow you to transfer ownership and your warranty to another person!! Wow!! That's just amazing that a company would have such a good and proper policy!! Imagin that!!

3) Car dealership/Manufacturers have only 1 price for the same vehicle, going to the same destination, with the same class and same services rendered....Some Dealership might asked for a few dollars more, but it's never 2.2x the price - for the same vehicle, going to the same destination with the same service and class.....And you can transfer ownership.....

So just how much better is the Auto Industriy when compared to the Airline industry? 1000 times better......

Then learn to drive that way you have all the flexiability. leave a week ahead of time to avoid traffic issues. :D

@ A320FAN,

I guess your last comment about driving is your way of saying that you give up and agree with us - that you know the airlines have an unfair monopoly and an unfair Terms and Conditions.....

That is a known fact and nothing new here. However, they are agreed upon each time a person buys a ticket. If you don't agree with them, don't purchase the ticket. If you want flexibility, purchase the changeable ticket.

Didn't know where else to put this as I don't think it deserves it's own thread. Found on wiki but doesn't change the facts of the written statement.........

In 2011, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer (who worked with Senator Kennedy on airline deregulation in the 1970s) wrote:

What does the industry's history tell us? Was this effort worthwhile? Certainly it shows that every major reform brings about new, sometimes unforeseen, problems. No one foresaw the industry's spectacular growth, with the number of air passengers increasing from 207.5 million in 1974 to 721.1 million last year. As a result, no one foresaw the extent to which new bottlenecks would develop: a flight-choked Northeast corridor, overcrowded airports, delays, and terrorist risks consequently making air travel increasingly difficult. Nor did anyone foresee the extent to which change might unfairly harm workers in the industry. Still, fares have come down. Airline revenue per passenger mile has declined from an inflation-adjusted 33.3 cents in 1974, to 13 cents in the first half of 2010. In 1974 the cheapest round-trip New York-Los Angeles flight (in inflation-adjusted dollars) that regulators would allow: $1,442. Today one can fly that same route for $268. That is why the number of travelers has gone way up. So we sit in crowded planes, munch potato chips, flare up when the loudspeaker announces yet another flight delay. But how many now will vote to go back to the "good old days" of paying high, regulated prices for better service? Even among business travelers, who wants to pay "full fare for the briefcase?"

@ The Judge....
Yawn…..
Please, am I supposed to be impressed?
Many things today cost less when compared to 1974 or other years, either because of deregulation, competition or technology.
As an example, the price of a computer today is dirt cheap when compare to the price in 1990. But even so, you don't see the computer mannufacturers coming out with unfair policies? And you don't hear of people complaining about unfair computer policies either......
Bus tickets are also lower and again, you don't see or hear of unfair policies in regards to buses.....
should I mention cabs? Although cab fairs have gone up, in relationship to gas prices and the wages the passenger earns, the cab fairs are less expensive today......But you still don't hear people complaining about unfair cab fare policies.....
And I don't want to repeat myself, so please read the complete thread and you will see and understand why the current airline industry T & C is completely unfair....

Maybe YOU should read the entire thread. I said they weren't fair. Agreed. I am with you. We are one on that. Do you get it??? Buy the unrestricted fare, problem solved. Next issue please.........

@ Judge,

I'm glad you are onboard with me and agree. However, buying the unrestricted ticket is not the correct answer to the solution. 2 negatives don't make a positive!

You don't buy 2 bus tickets because you don't know if the employee you send on a trip will leave your company and you might need to change th ename on the ticket because of this - do you?? Be honest now....

You guy 1 ticket and if the emplyee leaves, you give the ticket to the next employee, and there's no penalties or anything else......

I'm not asking for a free ride, I would be very happy to pay a fee to have the name on the ticket changed or to have the option of getting a refund. But non of these are available options!!

And you answer to "just buy the unrestricted ticket, and let's move on" is not an answer and it sounds like you already give up by making such a statement.

I don't mean any disrespect to you, but the title of the thread is: HOW CAN AIR CANADA IMPROVE??

We could expand that by saying: HOW CAN ALL AIRLINES IMPROVE??

Airlines WON'T improve if we say and accept that the answer is to buy the "other" ticket which is 2.2x the price. That, is not an improvement!

to do what you want (the changes) that means ticket prices will go up and then people will complain about that

I agree with everything you say up until that last paragraph. And I partially agree with that. You buy ONE ticket but if you don't want to pay any penalties, you buy the unrestricted ticket. This is where you're not understanding, I believe. I'll expand on this momentarily.

This is the heart of the problem. There is an available option. You purchase the unrestricted fare.

Let's cut to the meat of this. You are saying, I think, that there should be an option in the less expensive fares to allow changes to names or refunds with little penalty. Here's why there never will be and this is what you need to comprehend. Airlines are massive money-making machines. They may not want you to think they make money but believe me, they do. And who benefits from this? Other than their upper management, the government. Airline tickets are HEAVILY taxed. There are complaints about this all the time. I hear people say, "Oh man, the taxes on this ticket are almost as much as the fare." Well, tell me, do you think the government is gonna step in and regulate their cash cow? These rules are here and they are probably here for the duration. We can bury our heads in the sand and say they should change, their are no options but the reality is that there is an option. It's not a good option but there is an option.

I am not trying to be as ass but you keep shying away from the full fare cuz it's expensive. Yes it it, probably triple or quadruple the price of what you may have paid but that fare allows you to have zero penalties and peace of mind.

@ mars6423

Price of tickets would not go up. All they need to do is have a policy that says that they will charge XX number of dollars for a name change or a refund. They would not lose any money and would have happier clients!! :)

@ Judge
The Full Fare price IS THE PENALTY!! So we are not talking about a 10% or 20% penalty. We are talking about 100% penalty. And your answer to buying a full fare ticket, that's a 200% penalty.....

If there were to be a FAIR PENALTY in the T & C, then both the airline and the gov still make money - it's a non-issue. As the penalty would be taxable....

So the airline would still make $$, the Gov would still make money and the clients would be happier and more sympathetic to the airline situations.

Currently, I think if you ask anyone about "how they feel" about AA possibly going bankrupt and the majority of the clients are going to say GREAT!! I'm glad they are losing money!! They've been stealing from me for to long!!

You will not hear anybody say anything like: I feel so bad for them. They worked so hard. But it just wasn't meant to be.

Reason?? Nobody likes to get Screwed over!! And in today's airline industry, we are being screwed over.....By unfair T & C policies.....

You have your way of thinking, which is the full fare tix are the penalty. I have my way of thinking that the full fare tix are freedom to change whatever the hell you want. I have made my argument but you have not listened. Your argument I agreed with, the t and c's are unfair. Agreed but they aren't going to change. Good luck.

if it was to change a letter then there could be a small fee (if its not the airlines mistake) but if its a complete name change then it should be a new ticket

when you purchase a nonrefundable/no flex ticket you get exactly that which you agreed to when purchasing the ticket, you had the opportunity to purchase a refundable ticket but chose to pay the cheapest ticket which offers no protection, if they just add fees to change this and that then no one would buy flexible tix and that would then increase the avg price of tickets to maintain profitability

@ The Judge and Mars6423:
This thread is about "how can AirCanada Improve" and "Have a better cancelation policy. It's not about "how can I suck up to the airlines" - that's a different thread........

I'm not saying that you don't have a voice and should not have one. I completly support open discussion, because that's a fair and open T & C policy!!

If I was an Airline company, I would be saying that your words don't count for anything and you are not allowed to speak or say anything, unless you want to pay more than 2x the price......Sadly, by your own admition, you guys would be willing to pay. So my guess is you have lots of $$ to throw around.....

So please wake up and stop supporting unfair T & C Policies.......Wrong is wrong and it doesn't matter how you try to butter it up, it still does not make it right.....

And yes, I am a Airline supporter. I do so by suggesting how Airlines can improve their service and by showing them where they are doing things wrong.......

We all get what you are saying. The point is that Air Canada is on the
Air transport business. Ticket prices are supply
And demand. Remember you just buying/ renting
a seat on an airplane not the space shuttle.
Low to mid priced economy class tickets
will always come with certain restrictions take it or
leave it. The business flyer for the most part with yourself
Excluded need extra flexibility and therefore
are willing to pay for that privilege.

If that is the case, here is your initial post starting the thread.

I missed the suggestion for improvement in there, unless your suggestion was for the government to intervene and if it is, I went over that in a subsequent post. It seemed more like an AC complaint posted in the wrong section. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.

It's kinda funny that the only people that think the current T & C policy of Airlines is OK or FAIR or GOOD BUSINESS......are airline employees or ex-airline employees......

I hate to say, but you folks have been brain washed to think that current Airline policies are good and there's nothing wrong with them.

If an Airline wants to know "how can they improve", well my suggestion to them is to have a FAIR/PROPER T & C policy, more specifically in regards to ticket changes/cancelation for small businesses, where the employer forks out $$ on behalf of the employee (to do business) but the employee leaves - and therefore the employer is left holding the bag.

So probably the only thing we are going to agree on folks is to disagree.
Anyone that has gone thru our current situation will agree with me and every airline employee or ex-employee probably won't.....:)

I'm ok with that as I know I've done my part to try to make the world a better place and help a company improve their service. :)

642435, you are probably a very nice number, er, person. But it is clear you either do not comprehend or are only reading parts of what I'm writing. Here is a quote from your very last post.

"It's kinda funny that the only people that think the current T & C policy of Airlines is OK or FAIR or GOOD BUSINESS......are airline employees or ex-airline employees......"

Here is another quote from your very last post.

"I hate to say, but you folks have been brain washed to think that current Airline policies are good and there's nothing wrong with them.

Here are a couple of quotes from previous posts I have made.

"That is a known fact and nothing new here."

That was in reference to your statement that the policies stated in the terms and conditions are unfair. In fact, that was my very first sentence in this thread, agreeing with you.

"I said they weren't fair. Agreed. I am with you. We are one on that. Do you get it???"

"I agree with everything you say up until that last paragraph. And I partially agree with that."

"Your argument I agreed with, the t and c's are unfair. Agreed but they aren't going to change."

I agreed with you on 4 separate occasions. If you're going to debate a point, 1/2 the process is listening and comprehending.

Things can be done to make change, but it does require political will. I am not convinced that passengers or the public confront politically the unfairness they face on a daily basis from airlines. Although I think she is a nut, Kate Hanni did succeed in getting the rules changed about airlines holding passengers hostage, often without food, water or access to toilets. It took persistence, political engagement and lobbying every bit as effective as the airlines own lobbying efforts.

In Europe, despite screaming from airlines which predicted widespread bankrupty, unfair competition with non-EU carriers and disaster, the protections were considerably strengthened for passengers travelling on flights which originate or arrive in Europe. It can be done. Not sure what happens in Canada, but unless someone is lobbying parliament, nothing will change.

Airlines control a vital part of the infrastructure of the nation. The air traffic system in the US enjoys massive public subsidy. They are protected from competition and enjoy special ownership rights and enjoy anti-trust immunity. They have been allowed to form mega-mergers, driving a coach and horses through monopoly regulation. Their priviledges allow them to abuse passengers. It is time a new balance was struck and that with these rights there should be responsibilities. The US model is broken and it needs to be fixed. In bad years, the airlines lose huge sums of money, file bankruptcy and start over....leaving investors and employees empty handed, and customers are royally screwed. The only winners are the fat cat managers.

Wake up and smell the coffee America.

@ The Judge: I'm sorry; I didn't explain myself properly in my last post. We both agree the T & C is unfair and so on; no issue....What we don't agree on is the method in which to resolve/fix it.

Your approach is to do nothing and just pay the much, much higher fee.
My approach is to tell the airlines their T & C is wrong and is equivalent to theft. My approach is also about complaining to the media and politicians if required to right the wrongs of Airlines.

As I mentioned before, this thread is about "How can AirCanada Improve".
So my suggestion to them is to have a better T & C policy - one that is fair and honest. "That" is a good method to improve service to clients for AirCanada. Paying the 2.2x higher ticket price, is "not".

@ Jimworcs: Excellent Post. You are correct. If people behave like sheep, then they will get fleeced (of their money). People need to get together and puch companies to correct their wrongs. Otherwise the other solution is people will push their politicians to get it done.

A nut? Perhaps. But the story behind why those tarmac rules were enacted is due to one of the most extraordinary propaganda campaigns ever perpetrated. And it was done by just a couple of people. There's a book about it; Diverted:High Flyers and Frequent Liars.

There is indeed a book about it.....written by someone called Mark Mogel!!!!

All is well and fine as long as any politically initiated airfare rules solution applies to all carriers flying in and out of the country that sets the rules. Sounds a lot like the situation Canadians got them selves out of when they were mesmerized as the USA thought deregulation was so wonderful (160 airlines defunct since then). So.... if REGULATION would solve the problem.. so be it! All will be rosie and just.