[Jetliner]

I want to first say that this post is NOT a personal attack. I am seeing a few things here with Butch that I have seen on another board. I would as that moderators/admins to pay attention.

If you look at his signature he has a link about his thoughts on the airlines. It ultimatly is part of this Google group; https://server2.kproxy.com/servlet/r...ndedpassengers

It's a message board about the flier's rights movment that you may have heard about. Kate Hani was the one leading the way with this. It seems the boards suddenly died off a couple months ago. However I guess the flier's bill of rights did as well. I'm not sure, because it's hard to find any new news on that suddenly, other than something about there being a cunch of guidlines passed. I've been reading that board, since he was so kind to invite us to see his thougths.

The problem over there, and it's starting to happen here, is he basically hijacked that board. In fact, he an another person on there kind of started tag teaming on one guy who is an airline employee, and it was pretty much the same thing there. Call the airline people scumbags or the like. Bring up arrests or calling the cops any chance he got. It seems that the later posts ate up the board with that sort of thing. There would be a few new complaints trickle in, but just like here, there were plenty that were nothing more than crap directed to another user.

These boards were meant as a way for people to voice complalints about the airlines, and for it to be discussed. Over there it was discussing flier's rights and the bill of rights. What that board turned into was a war zone.

I can see the same patterns starting to happen here. Look under the American Airlines section. He has a post called Eagleguy: Typical employee of a US-based airline That whole post is nothing more than a bash fest on one member of these groups, and it has exploded to include more, myself included.

It was brought up in the suggestions area that when someone posts a complaint they need to include info about the complaint. For example, saying that a particular airline sucks really doesn't "tell the world" what went wrong. Many of his posts are qutie the same way. He constatntly birngs up arrests, but won't provide any actual details or examples. Something else that I see consistantly on those boards is that someone will press him to back up what he is saying, and all he does is to ignore that, and keep spewing the same things. Then he turns arround and accuses other people of the same.

The reason I bring all of this up is this board is meant for a constructive place for people to get it out about what happened. He is kind of turning into the undesirable neighbor that takes over the neighborhood. On the fliers rights boards it happened that way. He would posts some damn long posts, and 80% of it was nothing more than bashing someone, or saying things that were not true, or the like. In other words, lots of useless crap. I think he (and another one or two memebers) had the thought process that if they really bashed the guy hard enough, he would go away. It didn't seem to happen. In fact, he has still posted there, even when everyone else (minus a couple newbies) have disapeared. And it's going to be the same here. These whole boards are going to turn into nothing more than a back and forth

Lastly, I thought that there were a set of rules, as there are normally with any forum. However, as I have searched, I cannot find any. May I suggest to the moderators that there should be a set of rules.

[Jetliner]

Sorry about the link above - here is the corrected link:

http://groups.google.com/group/strandedpassengers

[Suga00]

I hear you Jetliner, this is no longer an airline complaints forum but an airline employee bashing forum where the "compassion has been sucked out of the soul of the employees!" and we all work for "low-life organizations". Many of us just want to help, if we wanted to hear people tell us off, wish un-employment and bash us for events that weren't even our fault, we would just sit at the check-in counter on a weather day when planes can't take off because of 6 feet of snow and listen to passengers yell at us for mother natures actions. Oh how I miss those days

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

What these airline people want is, essentially, for the Air Transport Association (the Congressional lobby group for a few major US-based airlines) to moderate this, and similiar boards.

It's interesting, these clowns are screaming bloody murder because I dare to remind people about the fact that some (no, not all) airline people get their kicks by calling the cops on customers for no good reason. So, what is their response on this board?? They "call the cops!" My citation of that US Code, really, must have messed-up Jetliner. Talk about writing something in a "fit of anger," Jetliner, you took the cake with that last masterpiece! So I suppose both of you can, really, tell me, with a straight face, that one's Constitutional rights are NOT dimished when they set foot in most airports, in the US, or on board most US-registered aircraft.

The reality is that workers in surface mass transit, in large cities, simply don't behave like all too many workers of US-based airlines. But they encounter probably more "bad" people than the airlines. Indeed some of these "bad" people even have (illegal) guns. Still, these workers maintain their cool to a substantially greater degree than their airline counterparts. Why? Because, unlike the airlines, these workers know if they treat a customer badly, there better be a reason a hell of a lot better than a case of a 6-year old child who doesn't want to stop saying "bye-bye plane." True, most workers in mass surface transit are paid better than their airline counterparts. On the other hand it is rare for a mass surface transit worker's bad behavior to be recognized with something bordering on a medal. Even with union protection, there are, at least, SOME consequences for misstreatment of a customer.

You two have, conveniently, overlooked another frequent post of mine: Any airline customer who is physically assaultive; is drunk; refuses to remain seated; or smokes, deserves whatever he or she gets. On the other hand I have NEVER seen any kind of acknowledgement, from the other side, expressing agreement with the idea that an airline employee who witnesses a colleague abusing a customer should report that colleague. Thus you (the supremely "innocent" airline employees) are at the same level as the co-worker of those rogue cops who beat-up suspects and plant drugs. You may not be doing the dirty work yourself. But, you condone it through your own "blue wall" of silence.

[Jetliner]

Butch, my point is this: When you post responses about calling the DOT, etc, that's useful, constructive posting. You might include a comment or two that are a bit snide, but ultimately it's still addressing the concern that the poster has.

When you go on a tirade like you did in the American Airlines post, or all the crap about calling the police, that's not constructive. Yes, you did post ONE post that I've seen about drunks getting what they deserve. The rest about calling the police are not the same. You have one post here (may have been in the same AA post) where you stated that if anyone even tries to show that agent in writing the rules, they will get arrested.

Just to fill everyone a bit more on Butch's habits, and why I started this post to begin with:

The other board, as stated, is a discussion about the airline passenger's bill of rights. It started in Jan. 2007. It looks like for the first few months it was kind of like here in that people could voice complaints and it was discussed, with the difference being that it was all about a bill of rights. Also as we have here, there were a few regulars. You have John, an airline employee; Butch, who we all know from here; and Tony from Maine, who is hard to describe in any short form. In a nutshell, he obviously hates the airlines, and will post pretty much anything he can against them. He's posted several news links, but his descriptions always claim that the news link just shows how bad the airlines are, but when you read the article it's not the case. In many cases his description either includes things that aren't there, or takes it so far out of context it's not even funny.

So what happen was, people would post their complaints. John gave the airline side, so to speak. Kind of like myself and PHXflyer. Tony joined later in the game. At first Butch would dispense advice as he has done here, although there was still quite a bit of anti airline comments as well, but no big deal. But after a while it seems he went another path. He really started picking apart what John posted, although John stood his ground and backed up what he said. Then when people would post, Butch would jump in and respond, then state something along the lines of "you'll soon be hearing from John the airline stooge who will tell you......." So it looks like he was trying to discredit the one person on there who really was trying to address things from the airline side.

Some time in all of this Tony joined in, and it got to where they would just go back and forth with John, trying to call him out and so on. The interesting part is John called Butch out on a few things and even provided proof that Butch was full of it, et Butch still kept on, just repeating his same lines over and over again in other posts. His biggest theme there was getting the cops called on you.

For whatever reason everyone seems to have dropped off the radar there back in September. Since that time John posted something in December about the fact the boards had just dropped off, and one complaint which Butch did respond to. But nowhere near the activity that it had.

So my whole point is that we don't need Butch doing the same here, attacking the airline people, clogging up the boards until it's just a war zone, and is of no real use for what it was intended for, discussing airline complaints.

[Jetliner]

Here's just one example. This was at the end of a response he had to a complaint:

Last, but not least, you will be reading, within the next two weeks, if not sooner, the airlines' "rebuttal" to what I've said here. There is, another, "John" on this board. NOT the "John Pentony," who posted in this thread previously. The "airline John" will defend, like a stuck pig, every last underhanded and slimy tactic the US-based airlines can think of. If the Obama Administration ever imposes significant reforms in the way US-based airlines relate to their customers, I expect the "airline John" will keep doing what he's doing until two US Marshalls slap the cuffs on him and, bodily, carry him away. A true, dedicated, airline employee. "Airline John's" next job: Back-alley abortionist.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Not once in all of his rants does Jetliner indicate that I, or those who hold a similiar view, somehow, managed to block poor abused John (from Kate Hanni's board) from posting. Nor have there been any statements about the ability of Jetliner, and his airline friends, to post being blocked. There is a LOT of talk about hurt feelings. Jetliner, let me fill you in on a bit of reality. There are a lot of people, not just me, who will react, with anger, at someone who sees nothing wrong with the trashing of Constitutional rights. As to the suggestion, between the lines, that I'm being super under-handed, etc: The only reason, Jetliner, why you were able to locate my posts on that other board was because of me. I use the same screen name on both boards, and there's also the link you've posted. If you, and your friends, are, really, interested in a constructive discussion, and not suppressing views which differ from your's, may I suggest you try addressing points head-on, rather than some nonsensical comment like "what does that have to do with..." Finally, you obviously see yourself on a "mission" to suppress dialog here. Accordingly, I wonder how much of a "former" airline employee you really are. Sounds more like someone--working--on a sinking ship!

[Jetliner]

I'm not here to suppress anyone's views. Ad I'm not screaming bloody murder either. As I stated, when you respond with things like contacting the DOT, that's useful advice and it's constructive to the point of the boards here. When you go on calling people names, that's not. Also it seems to me that you're the one trying to block people in a way, but trying to run them off the boards.

Seems to me that you are trying to avoid the true point, that was stated in perfectly clear English by going off on some other path. You don't see Jimworcz (spelling??) posting the same as you do. Sure, he obviously doesn't like the airlines. But he doesn't have to resort to juvenile behavior, either.

By the way, I don't see where John got blocked. He posted something fairly recently. Please, enlighten us as to what blocked posts you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

Nor have there been any statements about the ability of Jetliner, and his airline friends, to post being blocked.

And the English translation would be what exactly? If you are saying that we somehow blocked your posts then what "ability" are you referring to? I don't own the boards. I have no way of "blocking" a post any more than you. If you have had posts blocked, then why don't you ask the admins why?

Yes, I found your other board from your link. What's your point? You put it there for people to read. Why do you now have a problem wit the fact the someone actually did and sees how you act toward those with a different view? When I asked "what does that have to do with", as you have pointed out, that was on ONE post where you brought up arrest, which had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[pattis]

I just have to say that, Butch...I bet that you get terrible customer service everywhere you go. Airlines, local IGA, post office , bank, even your beloved amtrack. Why might that be? Sure, customer service sucks just about everywhere, however, in your case...well lets just say you might put some serious thought into the fact that you are just a beligerant , cranky old guy with nothing better to do but bi**h and complain. BTW, I have often wondered if the reason you hate the airlines so much is because, at one time you were married to a woman that could'nt stand you anymore and ran off with a airline pilot?

[Jetliner]

Oh damn. I wasn't going to go there, but.....

By the way Pattis - be prepared to be accused of being an airlline employee pig scumbag thing.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

If you, and your friends, are, really, interested in a constructive discussion, and not suppressing views which differ from your's

And yet he titles that wtih "Contrasting views should be banned "

Hello pot, this is kettle.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by Jetliner

Oh damn. I wasn't going to go there, but.....

By the way Pattis - be prepared to be accused of being an airlline employee pig scumbag thing.

Or not just any employee. I was accused of being the bloody CEO of US Airways!

[pattis]

Ha Ha...he has already called me many names..one was a 'frumpy librarian"...guess he does not like people who read books either. Acually, i used to have "airline employee" under my name until about 3 months ago. Thought I fixed it so it said ex airline employee.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

I bet that you get terrible customer service everywhere you go…even your beloved amtrack.

Well, if I got bad service there, I don’t think Amtrak would be so “beloved!” Also, Pattis, you seem somewhat detached from rail travel. Drop-in on Pennsylvania Station, in Manhattan, around 3:00 AM. If “airport standards,” or airport civil rights, were applied half of everyone in the station would be arrested!

…lets just say you might put some serious thought into the fact that you are just a beligerant , cranky old guy with nothing better to do but bi**h and complain.

Well, Pattis, you got one out of three. I’m 59 (“old??”) However, even when I was a “…cranky YOUNG guy…” I had something to “…bi**h and complain…” about. Jetliner’s ancestors—the protester bashing “hard hats,” of the Vietnam War era, were a target of my wrath, and that of others. Yes, my civil/constitutional rights sensibilities go way back! Then along came Richard Nixon’s “enemies list,” and other police-state tactics of that time. Unlike today, I had some support—my fellow “flower children.” Anyone remember the daisy in the barrel of the M-16? Maybe that’s what is needed at the airport today. Whenever a flight attendant, or gate agent, kicks into a police state mode, someone should put a daisy in the offender’s shirt pocket! Only today, doing that would net you a charge of aggravated assault! Ironically, airlines, during this period, (late 1960s) were the opposite extreme of what they are today. Anything was TOLERATED! Drunks, you name it. Ordering the pilot to drop you off, at Marti Field, in Havana, was about the only way to get yourself arrested. Well, Richard Nixon is dead, and so are a lot of those “hard hats.” Somehow, in the intervening time, all the people who used to work at the Motor Vehicle Office have now become flight attendants or gate agents. Makes sense. Not a big transition. Instead of indulging one’s sadism by making someone beg for their driver’s license, we now have the airport police on speed dial. Next time, that family, with the noisy kid, will do the smart thing—flush the kid down the toilet in the lav!

I have often wondered if the reason you hate the airlines so much is because, at one time you were married to a woman that could'nt stand you anymore and ran off with a airline pilot?

Didn’t I see that in a Lifetime network movie?? If my friend ran-off with an airline person, it would be with a Lufthansa flight attendant (he’s a German major). In that event I would forgive him. He would have had the good taste to cheat with someone who works for a decent airline! Uh oh. I think Jetliner said he loves American Air. If that's the case, now that he knows my "story," I'm in BIG trouble!

After the aforementioned drunks, assaulters, smokers, etc. have been taken care of, how many more Islamic people, Sihks, families with small children, Australians who use the phrase “fair dinkum,” and others, need be raped of their civil rights before someone, like the not so former airline employee, Jetliner, is given the time to ponder, in the unemployment line, the virtues of a free society??

Peace!

[Jetliner]

Note to self - when reading these posts don't drink hot chocolate. It burns the nose on the way out and the keyboard doesn't see to fare well either.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by Jetliner

Note to self - when reading these posts don't drink hot chocolate. It burns the nose on the way out and the keyboard doesn't see to fare well either.

Try covering they keyboard with Saran Wrap. As for the nostrils - no suggestions there. Notice there was no reply to his accusation that I was actually Doug Parker, CEO of US Airways!

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Regarding the last post: In a number of places I, intentionally, made about as much sense as Jetliner, PHXFlyer, et al, make in just about all of their posts! Sorry to disappoint guys, but I don't intend to clarify, for your facist brains, every thing I've ever posted on this board and elsewhere. I'll wait for your subsequent posts. If there is something worth commenting on, obviously you'll hear from me. Finally, since I'm not the only one who disagrees with you on this board, how many others are you trying to get kicked-off here??

[Jetliner]

Butch, either A: you are drunk, B: you have a brain tumor, or C: you just don't read. I don't know which. I've stated very clearly that when you post useful advice, I don't have a problem with you. The problem is you take anything that is said against the airlines at face value and scream bloody murder about it. Not every complaint is pure BS, but some are. But you don't call it that way.

I don't have a problem with any of the other folks here who are "anti airline" (for lack of a better term). The thing with you is you don't seem to have a real true reason for not liking the airlines. At least not one that I can find. You go on and on about arrest and rights, but not once do you post something that happened to you. It's always other people's war stories. And at that, you don't even post entirely factual information. Just where did the AA flight attendants burn all those pillows anyway? So from anyone's observation you are just as Pattis said - "just a beligerant , cranky old guy with nothing better to do but bi**h and complain."

There's a saying that if you repeat the same lie long enough, people will believe it. You need to stop living by that. Also you need to understand that just because you yell the loudest, doesn't make you right.

By the way, I don't care if you paint your self in rainbow color and run down time square. Sexual orientation does not bother me.

[Jetliner]

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...WS02/301219894

http://indieregister.wordpress.com/2...t-at-wal-mart/

Looks like Wal-Mart is a police state.

http://www.redding.com/news/2008/dec...taurants-sink/


http://www.sodahead.com/question/132...loyees/?page=1

And don't forget the fast food employees.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

I've stated very clearly that when you post useful advice…

Jetliner, and his gang, will be the final arbiter of what is “…useful advice…”

you take anything that is said against the airlines at face value

In addition to the newsletter of the Air Transport Association; “The Wall Street Journal,” and other “Murdoch” rags, can you name a publication which, in your view, does NOT “…take anything…at face value…”

you don't seem to have a real true reason for not liking the airlines

Jetliner, are US-based airlines the only people who, in your view, are allowed to crap on the Constitution? Or, is this thinking wider than you’re letting-on?? Is it possible, in your mind, for an airline to do ANYTHING that is unacceptable?? I wonder.

By the way, do you, actually, live in the USA?? Are you a “skin head?”

but not once do you post something that happened to you.

Hey, that’s one way of silencing comments you don’t like. So much for relying on the media. Again, if I quote, only, from the Wall Street Journal; the Atlanta Journal Constitution, and similar publications, will THAT be ok??

Jetliner, what if I make a comment on that bogus awards ceremony American Air held for some employees within the past year? Does this ruling of your’s still apply? A flight attendant, who was honored in that ceremony, said the purpose of the occasion was simply to provide a publicity cover for the death of a Hatian woman at the hands of an indifferent American Air crew. When the US Supreme Court rules in favor of the deceased’s estate, what are you going to do? Try to get the Constitution amended? Big problem however: You deny the existence of the Constitution.

There's a saying that if you repeat the same lie long enough, people will believe it.

I see you’re an avid reader of my posts on the other board. Rather than plagerizing, don’t I get credit for that statement??

You know, that door swings both ways. Hopefully, your posts will have everyone believing that all workers, of US-based airlines, are, again, the reincarnation of Mother Theresa; that my belief in the existence of something called civil rights is simply the result of one of the following impairments: A: you are drunk, B: you have a brain tumor, or C: you just don't read.

he basically hijacked that board.

I don’t think so. However it’s obvious that is what you, and your friends, have done on this board.

Again, Jetliner, you and your friends have a very well funded Air Transport Association (“ATA”), and similar groups, to advocate the concerns of airline managements and yourself. The ATA has a well-paid spokesman—a former PR manager for US Airways. Those on this board, who oppose what you stand for, have Kate Hanni (a passenger rights advocate), and Dianna Fairechild, a former Pan Am & United flight attendant, to voice their concerns. Neither of these people can claim six-figure salaries. Indeed, Kate took-out a second mortgage on her home to finance her campaign (in addition to soliciting donations.) On our side, there are no well-paid spokespeople or lobbyists. Yet with all the slick news releases, and PR spin, the ATA regularly dishes-out you and your friends see the need to take things a step further—silence the opposition. Or, at least, try to. It’s a lot like the Tammany Hall thugs who would harass the opposition candidates, in New York City, during the early part of the 20th century.

In anticipation of your self-righteous rant: No, I do not believe you, or anyone else on here, is on the payroll of the ATA. You, and your friends, are just in bed with them—big time!

[Jetliner]

Well it certainly seems that there is no moderation on this board.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by Jetliner

Well it certainly seems that there is no moderation on this board.

There is but it seems to be quite lax as of late. You can read the threads about Delta employees posting from IP addresses that were traced back to the Delta corporate servers. Recently, though, there hasn't been much intervention as is indicated by the recent spam with nothing being done to thwart it.

[DRHHUB]

Butch, I'm new to the site. I've been reading it since about July of last year, after a particularly bad flight, to see if I was the only was with the same feelings. After reading a ton of posts on this board, I do feel the need to say that most of what these people are saying is fairly accurate. You do tend to go off of tangents that, in my mind, lessens your credibility of what you're trying to say.

I agree with some of what you say. The minute I walk in an airport I feel like I've given up a bunch of my rights. To the "pro" airline people (nothing negative meant by that), I honestly feel like a hostage the minute I arrive. I agree with Butch on that. I've simply chosen not to fly on any trip that can be driven in 12-16 hours. Longer than that, I've got to fly. To you Butch, we've got to deal with that. Neither your or my opinions are going to change that.

I use this site as a tool to teach me how to better prepare for my upcoming ordeal. To the people who work for, or have worked in the past for, the airlines I thank you for taking the time to try to teach us. Even in the good days, I only flew 5-6 times a year. One particular post I read recently was very helpful. It was about what I've learned is an "open jaw"(?) ticket. I was getting ready to do just that and stopped because of the post I read.

In short, to all the "pro" and "anti" airline posters. Thanks to both sides. I have learned a lot. I'm more anti airline than pro. There's not a good one left. I fly the cheapest and am loyal to none. But, I don't believe it's because of all airline employees. It's simply bad airline bosses. And to Butch, keep on posting, but you would be more credible if every post wasn't full of venom for those that disagree with you.

As a side note, Butch, I hate the blue fonts!

[DRHHUB]

Butch, I'm new to the site. I've been reading it since about July of last year, after a particularly bad flight, to see if I was the only was with the same feelings. After reading a ton of posts on this board, I do feel the need to say that most of what these people are saying is fairly accurate. You do tend to go off of tangents that, in my mind, lessens your credibility of what you're trying to say.

I agree with some of what you say. The minute I walk in an airport I feel like I've given up a bunch of my rights. To the "pro" airline people (nothing negative meant by that), I honestly feel like a hostage the minute I arrive. I agree with Butch on that. I've simply chosen not to fly on any trip that can be driven in 12-16 hours. Longer than that, I've got to fly. To you Butch, we've got to deal with that. Neither your or my opinions are going to change that.

I use this site as a tool to teach me how to better prepare for my upcoming ordeal. To the people who work for, or have worked in the past for, the airlines I thank you for taking the time to try to teach us. Even in the good days, I only flew 5-6 times a year. One particular post I read recently was very helpful. It was about what I've learned is an "open jaw"(?) ticket. I was getting ready to do just that and stopped because of the post I read.

In short, to all the "pro" and "anti" airline posters. Thanks to both sides. I have learned a lot. I'm more anti airline than pro. There's not a good one left. I fly the cheapest and am loyal to none. But, I don't believe it's because of all airline employees. It's simply bad airline bosses. And to Butch, keep on posting, but you would be more credible if every post wasn't full of venom for those that disagree with you.

As a side note, Butch, I hate the blue fonts!