[wkharris2001]

I know we have alot of opinionated people on this forum, and there may already be a discussion posted for this. but I came upon a situation today while working and was just curious what everyone here thought.

in an ATC delay situation when is it okay to release the passengers seats give them to standby passengers and send the flight out? since the flight is already past it's original scheduled departure. the captain of the aircraft tells you, we have a new wheels up time, lets board so we can go. do you wait to dispatch the flight untill the posted estimated time of departure that the passengers were given? risk losing your wheels up time and extending the delay? or do you decide once a majority of passengers are on and you're still waiting for 5 more passengers? release those 5 passengers seats get people from the later delayed flight onto the earlier delayed flight so the other passengers on the plane can make connections?

[AirlinesMustPay]

When is it Okay? It's always Okay. But if I was one of the 5, my question to the airline would be, "When is it Okay to come by and collect my cheque for compensation?"

In this case it's past the original scheduled time but earlier than the latest estimated departure time. I take it this means that when the passengers checked in they were told the departure time was pushed back and were given a new estimated departure time. So based on what the airline told them, they are proceeding according to this new estimated time. And you'd like to know if its Okay to leave earlier?

A party to a contract can always be in breach, provided he knows that there is a penalty for breach which would be to have to pay damages to the innocent party.

So if it suits the airline to leave, then they can. I was at pains to set this out in another thread where USAir left 2 passengers behind so the others already on board said to be 122 could leave on time. That's surely a good decision and "Okay". Just compensate the ones you left behind.

And if as I have been hearing over the past day or two in the same thread that Americans are pretty self sufficient and its just the wimps and whiners who will complain, the airline has it really good. Of the 5, maybe 4 are self-sufficient and the airline only has to compensate the one wimp/whiner.

The airline just has to put up a sign

"Wimps and whiners this way to collect your travel voucher for $500 and a booking on the next flight out.
Self Sufficient Americans join the next line to get a new reservation bearing in mind that dates and times are not part of the contract"

See how quickly the other 4 self sufficient ones join the Wimps/Whiners line.

[The_Judge]

I don't know where that rant came from but to answer the original question, if the delay was known before the scheduled departure time and a new time was posted, I would follow the new time for releasing the seats. If the delay came after the time where seats should be released, I see no problem in having released them even if the delay is lengthy. In other words, I would only wait in releasing them if the scheduled departure time turned in to a delay BEFORE the seats should be released. Does that make sense??

[The_Judge]

I was too late to edit my above post so I had to make a new one.

As for what AMP said, if a person is not at the airport and checked in at least 30 minutes (more for some airports domestically) before scheduled departure, he/she risks losing his seat for that flight with no compensation coming. He/she would have to be a mind reader to know if a delay were to occur, then show up demanding compensation because he/she is still on time for the new posted time. This, of course, is assuming the delay wasn't posted before they left home and were aware of it because they were a good traveler and checked to see if their flight was on time and their reservation was in order.

[Jetliner]

Passengers need to show up for the regular scheduled departure time. It's quite common that air traffic control gives you a certain wheels up time, and then at some point along the way that gets lifted and the plane has to go.

If the plane has not arrived yet, I would wait until at least it does arrive to start giving away someone's seat, but if the plane is there, 10 minutes prior to scheduled departure time.

Airilnesmustpays post has been reported as an un-helpful post.

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by The_Judge

I don't know where that rant came from but to answer the original question, if the delay was known before the scheduled departure time and a new time was posted, I would follow the new time for releasing the seats. If the delay came after the time where seats should be released, I see no problem in having released them even if the delay is lengthy. In other words, I would only wait in releasing them if the scheduled departure time turned in to a delay BEFORE the seats should be released. Does that make sense??

What I said was not a rant as it was not something I directed at anybody. The writing in bold was my suggestion for a sign that may be put at the airport

The situation I contemplated from the OP's post was:

Passenger arrives at check in at 2 p.m. for a flight leaving at 4 p.m. He would have to get to the boarding area for 3.30 p.m. When he checks in the agent tells him the flight is now leaving at 6 p.m. So his new boardng time is 5.30 p.m. He may even see the new departure time after he checks in, on one of the monitors.

So knowing that his flight is delayed, he goes to have a meal or drink, browses the airport shops to pass the time, intending to get to the gate for 5.30. But the airline's plans change. At 5 they get the all clear to leave before the 5.30 and they leave 5 passengers who have checked in and are on their way to boarding (remember these people's bags are on board - isn't there a security issue?). I am saying yes they can leave if they want to as far as the passengers are concerned, but the passengers must be compensated if they ask for it and given the next flight out.


The reason for my writing in bold was to stress the point, if there are people who don't want compensation, that's even better for the airline. Just compensate the one who wants it.

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by Jetliner

Airilnesmustpays post has been reported as an un-helpful post.

Sorry Jetliner, I can't see tha anyone should think that my post was unhelpful.

If you didn't like it, that's different. Say you didn't like it. You are of course entitled to disagree.

[PHXFlyer]

To answer the question in the original post of this thread, if the captain of the aircraft says "we're going" then I think it would be reasonable to make a gate area page (perhaps two) which, if there aren't more than a few missing, includes the last name(s) of the passenger(s). If they dont show up to board within 2-3 minutes of making the page then I'd say go ahead with boarding the standby passengers. I've always heard it announced or been told by agents during weather/ATC delays to stay in the gate area as the situation may change at any time and if so boarding would begin immediately.

Just my $0.02 on the "reported as an un-helpful post" bit this was posted in the general discussion forum and was not posted by anyone who had a specific issue or incident with an airline. The OP threw out a topic for discussion and there was an opinion expressed. Good, bad or indifferent it really doesn't matter and it cannot be "unhelpful" because there wasn't an aggrieved person seeking advice about a complaint against an airline.

Stepping off the soap box now.

[jimworcs]

Reporting AMP's opinion, which is perfectly valid, as unhelpful is ridiculous and says more about you Jetliner, than ever it does about AMP's posting.

The issue is that the passengers were advised of a new departure time. I would like something else to be considered. A number of airline people on here repeatedly say that when a new departure time is posted, this may always be brought forward again and that passengers should be prepared for this. Whilst this is correct, how are inexperienced passengers supposed to know this? The new time is simply posted on the computer screen, and often, this is the only information available. Finding staff airside who are able/willing to help is often like finding hen's teeth, especially where there are a number of delays. So if the passenger goes to the gate, sees a significant delay on the screen and decides to go for meal and come back closer to the departure time.. what would happen then? Should the passenger be penalised? How was the passenger to know?

[The_Judge]

Airports do have speaker systems which are utilized by the airlines. When flights board, especially ones that are delayed, they will make terminal-wide announcements. When a flight is delayed and a passenger is given a departure time of, say 6pm, he/she will most likely wander around. If that time is moved forward, as I stated, a terminal announcement would most likely be made (if the agent has any brain cells in his head) to advise the passengers to return to the gate for boarding. It is partly the passenger's responsibility to listen to announcements. One can't say, "Well, you told me 6pm." Things change, especially weather and when it comes to weather, it is very hard to predict when it will clear. I will agree it is the agent's/airline's responsibility to keep the passenger informed but it falls on the passengers to listen to the announcements.

[Jetliner]

Yes, well, disagree all you want. The OP posed a question and all airlinesmustpay did was go on a rant about breeching contracts and compensation, etc, etc, etc. Nothing in the post did anything to answer the question, but instead was used as a chance to gripe about airlines.

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by wkharris2001

in an ATC delay situation when is it okay to release the passengers seats give them to standby passengers and send the flight out?

do you wait to dispatch the flight untill the posted estimated time of departure that the passengers were given?

risk losing your wheels up time and extending the delay?

or do you decide once a majority of passengers are on and you're still waiting for 5 more passengers?

release those 5 passengers seats get people from the later delayed flight onto the earlier delayed flight so the other passengers on the plane can make connections?

The OP asked 5 questions, but in my mind it was the same question being rephrased, perhaps for clarity.

My post clearly answered the question by saying, Yes, leave the 5 passengers behind anytime it suits the airlines to do so. By necessary implication it means that my view is that prudent airline management will release the seats for standby passengers. You don't want to leave with 5 empty seats. You sell them to standby passengers. After all where is the airline going to get the money to compensate the one of the five who needs to be compensated. I see a new word, "gripe"

If expecting to be compensated when the airline leaves you behind is to "gripe", so be it.

So my suggested airport sign will read, "Wimps, whiners and gripers this way for a $500 voucher and a reservation on the next flight out."

That's the line you can expect to see me in.

[PHXFlyer]

That's all well and good but if it's a delay for weather and/or ATC issue there won't be the offer of $500 in vouchers or anything approaching that.

[jimworcs]

Originally Posted by The_Judge

Airports do have speaker systems which are utilized by the airlines. When flights board, especially ones that are delayed, they will make terminal-wide announcements. When a flight is delayed and a passenger is given a departure time of, say 6pm, he/she will most likely wander around. If that time is moved forward, as I stated, a terminal announcement would most likely be made (if the agent has any brain cells in his head) to advise the passengers to return to the gate for boarding. It is partly the passenger's responsibility to listen to announcements. One can't say, "Well, you told me 6pm." Things change, especially weather and when it comes to weather, it is very hard to predict when it will clear. I will agree it is the agent's/airline's responsibility to keep the passenger informed but it falls on the passengers to listen to the announcements.

If the agent has any brain cells in his head... where do I begin with that one!!

As stated many times on this board, many announcements are only made in the gate area... it is rare to have terminal wide announcements. This doesn't answer my fundamental question.. how is the customer to know? If the airline has advised them that the aircraft will now depart at 9pm instead of 6pm, and this how now been brought back forward to 8pm, how is the customer to know that this might happen? They could have gone outside the terminal to eat or smoke a cigarette... based on the information given to them by the airline.

[AirlinesMustPay]

I cannot believe that a passenger hearing an announcement to board immediately will not immediately head to the boarding area. For the 5 passengers of the OP's post who did not make it, obviously they did not hear the announcement, if one was made at all. I myself wonder if some of these airline agents have any brain cells.

Jim raises an important question in asking how is the passenger to know. In a contractual situaion, what is relevant is what is known by the parties at the time. I travel frequently and I have to say I have never seen after an airline announces a delay, they bring the time forward. On one occasion on checking in for a flight scheduled to leave at 9 a.m., the airline gave a new departure time of 5 p.m. They told passengers including me that they needed a part that was being flown in from somewhere in the U.S. The check in agents apologised for the delay and gave each passenger vouchers for breakfast and lunch at the airport restaurant. In those circumstances passengers correctly accepted the explanation and the delay. After all, if the aircraft needed to change a part, a passenger would much prefer that they took the time to change the part than to take off with a defective part. I however did not stay in the airport. I left and returned at 3 p.m.

If there was an announcement at say 1 p.m. that the flight was ready to leave, I would not have heard it. No one told the passengers to be sure to wait in the airport. I would have been taken aback to find when I got there at 3 p.m. that the aircraft had already left.

The passengers contract was to fly at 9 a.m. and then the airline changed the time to 5 p.m. Upon the passengers acceptance of the meal vouchers and walking away from the check in counter, all are bound by the new time. If the airline wants the passengers to wait in the airport, they must say so. If circumstances so justify (e.g. if the repair was not complete), they can push a departure time further again, but not bring it forward, at least not without having to compensate passengers left behind. The validity of the terms of any contract and any variation depends on what is known by the parties.

Apart from the one lengthy delay above, I have experienced many shorter delays of an hour or two, but I have never heard any airline personnel say to stay around the boarding area.

[mars6423]

well airlinesmustpay, i am not sure if you travel as frequently as you may say, i have seen many delays move up, and many times (especially in asia where monsoon season is occuring) they tell passangers to wait in the boarding/waiting room so that if there are any changes than everyone would be aware and noone would miss their flight due to "not hearing the announcement" if they decide to leave and miss the flight as it will also say final boarding on the screens, than i believe it is their fault for missing the flight since they left after hearing the announcement that they could leave at anytime

granted that i have mostly seen this in Singapore and with Singapore Airlines, and many airports and airlines based in asia are more efficient, reliable, and seem to know what they are doing to a much better and higher degree

however, there are some self-centered passengers who for whatever reason they believe that everything will evolve around them and that they can do whatever with no consequences, and dont listen and miss the flight and then complain even after announcements were made and their last name called

[AirlinesMustPay]

Aren't we all saying the same thing?

Judge: If a person is not at the airport and cheked in at least 30 minutes before scheduled departure, he/she risks losing his seats for that flight with no compensation coming.

Jetliner: Passengers need to show up for the regular scheduled time

PHXFlyer: If they don's show up within 2-3 minutes of making the page then I'd say go ahead with boarding the standby passengers

Jimworcs: Should the passenger be penalised if he does not know the departure time is brought forward

Judge: Its the airline's responsibility to keep the passenger informed but it falls on the passengers to listen to the announcement



I think we are all agreeing that if the time is brought forward the passenger should be so told, either by being told to stay around the gate to listen for announcements or by terminal wide announcements, but if he did not know he cannot be held responsible for not being at the gate. At least no one has expressed disagreement with any of this.

The real question which a responsible airline employee would want answered when he asks "Is it okay if I do this or that ? " is, "Will the airline be opening itself to liability if I do this or that ?" That has to be the underlying concern. I sought to address this in my first post by addressing the question of the possiblity of a claim for breach and having to compensate, but one member saw this as not answering the question and as an attempt to gripe against airlines.

But Airlines need to consider the question of compensation when passengers are delayed or left behind. I threw out an arbitrary figure of $500. Maybe that's too much especially if it's a short flight. For instance if it's a flight from New York to Washington, and the passenger must get to Washington the same day, the airline may offer to refund his money and give him a $100 voucher and perhaps the passenger may get a flight on another airline or even take the greyhound bus.

But it is my suggestion that for those in the airline business, it's no point labelling complainers as gripers. People even when they are in the wrong will sometimes complain. Much more when they think the airline is in the wrong.

[The_Judge]

Thud. Thud. The sound of a dead horse being beaten. An airline has a delay. A time is given. Passenger wanders about. Time is moved forward by x amount of minutes. Terminal announcement is made for passengers to return. What more can the airline do? I have actually seen agents running around the concourses in Narita (Tokyo) screaming out the flight and city of where the plane is going. Looks un-professional but is that what needs to be done?

[AirlinesMustPay]

[quote=The_Judge;12356] Terminal announcement is made for passengers to return. What more can the airline do?quote]


Thud Thud.

Tell the passengers on check in to stay near the gate as the departure time may be brought forward. I have never been told that when there is a delay.

In Miami when there is a delay or layover, I always head for the Cuban cuisine at La Carreta at Concourse E. In there you don't hear the announcements. But there are concessions throughout the airport nearer to the gates. So how about this, have an agent at the gate periodically give out vouchers redeemable at one of the concessions near the gate for sandwiches and drinks, so passengers don't "wander" to the airport restaurant.

When you count the cost of that, it's cheaper than having to hand out $500 vouchers to passengers who didn't hear the announcement.

Isn't that very easy? I think I need to get a job with an airline. I'll soon sort out all these "insurmountable" problems

[Silent Bob]

So how about this, have an agent at the gate periodically give out vouchers redeemable at one of the concessions near the gate for sandwiches and drinks, so passengers don't "wander" to the airport restaurant.

I believe that most airlines do this already, depending on the length of the delay. The last Continental flight out of newark, they gave out 8 dollar vouchers for a 3 plus hour delay to Boston with the instructions to get something and come back, though the delay went on for an additional hour. I normally don't take it because it's only 8 dollars and what I want cost more. I know it defrays the cost, but save the paper for someone who really must have that voucher.

Plus i don't think they give out vouchers for ATC/weather delays. But I agree that all agents, when it comes to a delay should make a gate and terminal announcements. Most delays I've been in, they've done it. I don't know about terminal as I'm usually on the plane.

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by Silent Bob

I believe that most airlines do this already, depending on the length of the delay.

And here I am trying to invent the wheel.

It's not just a question as to who wants the voucher. Most passengers will have the $8 in their pocket available to spend on something to eat. It's a question of keeping them close to the gate.

[wkharris2001]

Originally Posted by The_Judge

Thud. Thud. The sound of a dead horse being beaten. An airline has a delay. A time is given. Passenger wanders about. Time is moved forward by x amount of minutes. Terminal announcement is made for passengers to return. What more can the airline do? I have actually seen agents running around the concourses in Narita (Tokyo) screaming out the flight and city of where the plane is going. Looks un-professional but is that what needs to be done?

as unprofessional is it was/is/looks. that is actually what we did. we made first a terminal wide general boarding announcment. we then made a terminal wide final boarding call. we then made a terminal wide final boarding call by specific passenger name (while someone went to the lounge where the speakers aren't very loud and called out the flight number and city) after everyone was told "if the plane gets here sooner then the estimated arrival time it will leave sooner so stick around" but yet i think it was 5 people missed their flight. but eeeeeevery one else managed to hear the terminal wide announcments and get on the plane in time to leave?

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by wkharris2001

after everyone was told "if the plane gets here sooner then the estimated arrival time it will leave sooner so stick around" but yet i think it was 5 people missed their flight.?

Was everyone told this individually, e.g. upon check-in or was this a general announcement? If you go to the boarding area and say this, some would not have been there, maybe having a meal, maybe in the restrooms.

I would be interested in knowing what you did about the five people.

[wkharris2001]

we rebooked them on the next flight. it was a group of people traveling together, and yes these particular individuals were told to stick around by a gate agent.

[jimworcs]

It always amuses me that gate agents often use the "everyone else" heard the announcement as if they are suggesting that the person was lying. If they heard the announcement, do you think they deliberately missed the flight; decided to ignore it or had cooked up some dastardly scheme to make Delta look bad?

It is irrelevant whether anyone else heard it.. what is relevant is that they relied on the advice of the airline of the revised departure time. If they had indeed been told it might be brought forward and to remain either "at the gate" or "in the terminal", fair enough. But often they are not.. and indeed I have often been in a situation in which the delay is posted on the screen, with no further information.