[tionaluster]

On September 28, 2009 I purchased two tickets from Delta.com for travel from BDL (Hartford, CT) - PBI (West Palm Beach, FL) departing on 12/25/2009 departing at 2:00 pm and returning on 12/29/2009. I made the decision of flying direct since this was Christmas day and I didn't want to get stuck missing connecting flights. I paid approximately $210.00 more to fly direct than to take connecting flights. The total cost of each ticket with taxes was $ 562.19. When I was selecting seats the seat selection area of the reservation showed that the plane was just about full. On October 3, 2009 I went online to delta.com to see if I could change my seats I got a surprise, the flight had been changed to leaving at 7:00 am, no biggy, I called the delta reservation center to make sure I was still on this flight(#1111)and they informed me that delta had put me and my son on a flight with two connections, no email, no call and the thing that gets me is when I made this reservation I paid the $ 200.00 plus extra per ticket to make sure I was on a direct flight. The reservation agent didn't want to put me back on the original direct flight but after going back and forth with him he put us back on the direct flight leaving at 7:00 a.m. THIS IS THE REALLY INTERESTING PART.......the flight leaving at 7:00 a.m. was completely empty and when I asked what happened to all the customers who paid for the direct flight that was suppose to leave at 2:00 I was told they where reassigned to connecting flight. Maybe I am wrong but to me this is robbery, you charge people 562.19 for a direct flight when the flight is just about full you change the time of the flight and instead of just emailing these passengers with a time change you move all these people onto flights with connections and are able to sell those seats on the direct flight to other people.

This is now getting to the point where I can't believe delta, I just went online to make sure my Flight time has not been changed again and guess what....they have now canceled the direct flight on Christmas day but when I go to my reservation online it still shows I am confirmed on flight 1111.

I am a frequent flyer of American Airlines and anytime they have a time or schedule change I am use to them emailing me.I choose to fly delta because they where the only airlines out of Hartford, CT that offered a direct flight to West Palm Beach.

[PHXFlyer]

What leads you to believe the non-stop flight was canceled? It still appears on DL's schedule:

Delta 1111 7:00am
25 Dec 2009 BDL 10:19am
25 Dec 2009 PBI McDonnell Douglas MD-88 0 03:19

I did notice, however, that DL has a flight from BDL to ATL leaving at the same time and using the same aircraft type. Very suspicious. If they do indeed cancel the non-stop flight and leave you only with a choice of connecting flights I would push for them to at least bump you up to first class. If that doesn't work then write to DL customer relations and ask for a voucher for the $200 difference in fare.

[PHXFlyer]

Just to add...it looks like that flight is pretty empty, however looks may be deceiving. Going by the seat map there are only 6 seats selected in the economy section and 7 in first class. DL.com only wants to sell me first class tickets on that flight and indeed a check of the GDS shows availability in economy is zero. My guess is that the flight may be mostly a charter since BDL-PBI is not a route that DL traditionally flies non-stop. The company who is selling the charter seats probably couldn't sell them all so DL probably offered several seats on this flight for sale through it's own channels.

[tionaluster]

I spoke with a reservation agent at Delta this afternoon to double check my reservation and was told that I am confirmed on flight 1111 leaving Hartford, CT(BDL) at 7:00 am on 12/25/2009. The reservation agent informed me that the reason the direct flight does not come up on delta.com anymore is that it COULD be sold out. When I asked was the flight sold out or not the reservation agent informed me she did not have that information.....I have a feeling I will be checking delta.com everyday until I leave on Christmas day.

[jimworcs]

Delta and their employees are unscrupulous liars. Record every conversation, names and dates... I have a feeling this is going to go the way of many Delta experiences...

[Jetliner]

jim - you think everyone is a liar -

To the original poster - Airline schedules are only final 1 calendar month ahead. So your flight on christmas day will not be finalized until November 1st (or within a couple days thereof.)

Also keep in mind that Delta and Northwest are still merging everything, which includes flight schedules. So given both, you will still see flight changes between now and then.

Make sure on December 1st to recheck everything. There should be no further changes at that point.

[tionaluster]

What a great forum this is. I thank everyone who has responded to my thread. I have kept all the dates, times and names of the reservation agents I have spoken with at delta regarding this matter. I understand that airlines make changes to times and even cancel some of their flights I just feel that delta is a little bit sneeky about there schedule changes. I have tickets on a american airlines flight in February and they have made changes to the departer time and I have received a email already informing me that my departer time is earlier in the morning on that flight.

[wkharris2001]

delta schedules are finalized 6 weeks prior to departure. if you booked through a travel agency (even and online such as expedia, travelocity, orbitz, etc.) you do not get contacted by delta as the contact information is put into a different area of the record that the automated notification system cannot read. if you booked directly with delta then they usually hold off on contacting you until the schedule is finalized as schedules often change. as far as asking for a first class upgrade that's honestly not going to happen, the delta policy is that if you get changed from a non stop to a connecting flight, or you are delayed greater than 90 minutes arriving in your final destination you are entitled to a refund. but no other form of compensation. (i know many of you will not agree with this, but i am not here to debate this i am just saying what the rules are, i don't make them so don't shoot the messenger) perhaps this will clear up some confusion. it does still show as a non stop flight from bdl to pbi as of right now but that is subject to change..... phx i did look at the schedule it does appear as though there are two seperate flights with 2 seperate flight nubmers departing at the same time.... although a direct flight is not always non stop. it does look like these are two different flights.

[jimworcs]

Jetliner:
Sadly, I have been lied to so many times by airlines employees, that at some point we just have to face up to facts. Many airline employees and their managers are utterly unethical.

In this case, there is the sneaking suspicion of "switch and bait" in which a direct flight is offered, but at the last minute an indirect flight is sustituted with a "take or leave it" choice, with a refund. By then, at Christmas, there would be few choices available and most of them are likely to be unaffordable.

I would never choose Delta at a critical time for travel, as my experience of them is that they are arrogant and more interested in executive bonuses than customer care and abuse their monopoly.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

In this case, there is the sneaking suspicion of "switch and bait" in which a direct flight is offered, but at the last minute an indirect flight is sustituted with a "take or leave it" choice, with a refund. By then, at Christmas, there would be few choices available and most of them are likely to be unaffordable.

All airlines make schedule and route changes, even Southwest but to a lesser degree because they don't open up dates for booking as far in advance. The earlier one books the more likely there will be a schedule change. If a particular route is under performing based on advanced sales then it is absolutely the airlines right to substitute with an alternate routing.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

I would never choose Delta at a critical time for travel, as my experience of them is that they are arrogant and more interested in executive bonuses than customer care and abuse their monopoly.

There you go with the "monopoly" rant again. What gives? Prove to me that Delta has a monopoly. Even at their "fortress hub" in Atlanta AirTran, a competitor, is thriving. In the OP's case she had a choice of American, Continental, Delta or US Airways for her trip from BDL to PBI.

[mars6423]

I have a feeling Jimworks will have a hard time, he will probably say something along the lines that the Wall Street Journal said something about airlines and complex monopolies

however, if you understand what a monopoly is (all forms of monopoly) than the airlines would not be considered monopolies, as at each airport there are competitors, and each airline has the chance to fly to any airport they choose aslong as they follow the rules and guidelines of the state, and the airport, and there is enough space and weight allowance for the form of planes (a 747 or a380 obviously cannot land on a small runway or a small airport, as it just wouldnt be able to handle it or would be a wise economic decision)

each airline has a "hub" and airlines are bigger than other airlines due to size, belief that they can pay the banks for the loans, their business plan and structure, and some other reasons

however there is no monopoly as there is competition between several airlines, and other airlines can compete if they are able to get the finance needed, and it is easier for a large company that has been in existance for a while compared to a new company, due to trust that they can pay back, and a track record (even if they went through bankruptcy)

[jimworcs]

Ok, Mars, we have had private correspondence about this, but you appear not to understand my position, so I will reinterate it. First, the pattern of the major legacy carriers has been to build up fortress hubs. Do you think this pattern developed by accident? Is it a co-incidence that the major carriers all used the same strategy.. no, it is because they depend on their monopoly in specific markets to distort the market.

The US government has repeatedly refused to allow AA and BA to enter into an alliance. Their argument is that BA's position at LHR amounts to a dominant market position and that any joint AA/BA tie up would have a detrimental effect on competition. (I don't disagree with this analysis). BA has just over a third of the take off and landing slots at LHR.

Delta has almost 60% of the take off and landing slots at Atlanta. If you look at the positions of US Airways in CLT or Philly, Delta/Northwest in Minneapolis & Atlanta, AA in Dallas, etc etc, I think you will find that this dominance is repeated across the States. There are few places with true choice. Even in Chicago, the main airport is effectively a duopoly.

Competition is a complex matter. It is economically niave for Mars and PHX to argue that the relatively small number of routes which have direct "head to head" competition means that no monopoly exists. The lawyers at the airlines want you to think this, but it is far more complex. The key issue is the frequency, timing of slots and overall seat availability on a route. If Delta operate 10 flights per day between Atlanta and Miami and AirTran offers 2, that is not proof of "competition".

The rapid development of fortress hubs following de-regulation was a scramble by the airlines to develop dominant positions in major hubs so that they could control whole markets. The higher paying business passengers, (paid for by corporations or tax write offs) have little realistic choice. The services offered by a few low cost airlines at these hubs are not aimed at business travellers but at leisure travellers. Airlines further entrench their positions by bribing business travellers to use the airlines with frequent flyer miles from which they personally benefit, but which are paid for by corporations and tax write offs.

mars, following our private exchange, I suspect that you don't really understand what a monopoly is.. you seem to think that monopolies can only occur if there is no competition. This is not the definition of a monopoly. I will provide you with it again..

A situation in which a singlecompanyowns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. This would happen in the case that there is a barrier to entry into the industry that allows the single company to operate without competition (for example, vast economies of scale, barriers to entry, or governmental regulation). In such an industry structure, the producer will often produce a volume that is less than the amount which would maximize social welfare or charge prices which exploit their position.
Phx, based on our past exchanges, I suspect you know perfectly well that the fortress hubs are effective monopolies.. and just enjoy the sport of the exchange. I hope my answer has satisfied both of your needs!!

[Jetliner]

OK, but you are wrong on a key point here. First of all Atlanta is NOT slot restricted as are some other major airports. Given that, there is nothing stopping any airline from competing with them head to head. Also, just because only one airline CHOOSES to operate a certain market does not make it a monopoly.

So, Delta may fly 60% of the flights out of Atlanta, there is still nothing from stopping AirTran (or any other airline for that matter) from also flying the same market.

There is nothing bait and switch on this. Any airline can stop a particular route at any time. If they do so, it's because it's no longer profitable. Routes always have to be re-evaluated on a regular basis. And it doesn't matter what airline in the world you look at, there are always going to be some schedule changes each month or two months including non-stop to connection. The only difference here is that Delta's schedule is more volatile than other airlines (and even from the norm for them) due to the Northwest merger.

[jimworcs]

The barrier to entry does not have to be slot restrictions. The barrier to entry for any competitor at Atlanta is the inability to get a foothold for the lucrative business market which is what sustains the fortress hubs. AirTran nibbles at the edges with small levels (relatively) of business travel and new markets for low cost leisure travellers, who are willing to bend to the slots and timings of low cost and accept significantly lower levels of service.

The cost is the barrier to entry for real competition to thrive. The investment a competitor would have to set up is so high, and the risks so great, there is no realistic possibility of such a eventuality without government anti-trust involvement and break up of the monopoly. Even if a competitor came in on such a scale they could offer competitive timetables, enough connecting passengers and sufficient presence to compete, they would still significant barriers to entry as most business travellers in each market have entrenched positions in frequent flyer incentive schemes which they would be reluctant to yield to an unknown competitor.

These fortress hubs pose a real threat to genuine competition, and the airlines know this. They have fought politically for protection from normal consumer laws and are exempt from state enforcement procedures. They pay huge sums to bribe (or lobby, as they like to call it) to protect these positions. Why would they need to do this, if all was well in the "free market" you all seem to feel exists. There is not a free market operating in the US airline industry and any one who argues otherwise is niave.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

AirTran nibbles at the edges with small levels (relatively) of business travel and new markets for low cost leisure travellers, who are willing to bend to the slots and timings of low cost and accept significantly lower levels of service.

I don't know what you are talking about and quite frankly neither do you. AirTran is not as big a carrier as Delta, but they certainly do not offer a "significantly lower levels of service". Also AirTran is bigger with business traveler's than leisure travelers for the most part.

But we are kind of looking at just one part of the whole industry. The other thing is it's not the hub cities that have lack of competition so much as some of the small airports in the US that only have 2 or 3 airlines serving it. Those are where the high fares are found, so your whole argument of big hubs being a problem is flawed.

Looking at Atlanta, what about a market such as Miami to Atlanta. Both are big hubs for major airlines. Atlanta has Delta and AirTran, Miami has American. Right there are 3 airlines competing head to head with each other. And in fact, in every hub city there are at least two airlines that go head to head, as they each fly non stop to each other's hub.

Back to Miami-Atlanta, you still have US Airways, as an example. They don't fly non-stop, but they do connect through Charlotte. But even being a connecting carrier on that market, they are still competition.

Ultimately every hub airport has many airlines flying into it. They are a hub for one or two airlines simply because of the number of connecting flights. You said that Chicago is a duopoly having American and United. But O'hare still has many other airlines that fly there, and obviously they can fill enough seats to turn a profit or they wouldn't fly there at all. And in that example, UA and AA still have competition from carriers like Southwest and AirTran. Even though those airlines fly out of Midway as opposed to O'hare, many business travelers prefer Midway airport as it's closer to the city center.

Ultimately Jim, your whole side trip about competition in hubs is moot to the OP anyway - BDL and PBI neither one are hubs for any airline.

[jimworcs]

Well, we will clearly not agree..but the issue is not the number of airlines serving an airport... it is the overall number of seats, slots, etc.. The US Dept of Transport regards BA's position at LHR as dominant (less than 35% of the landing and take off slots). Curiously, they don't seem to have much to say about Delta's 60% position at Atlanta. For the record, I think both are dominant. LHR is at least beginning to be broken up and appears at last to be growth limited, which will increase competition from other London market airports and BA will be forced to give up further slots if the tie up with AA is to go ahead. Some effort to do the same at the fortress hubs is needed.

Your argument about prices on hub to hub routes where genuine competition on a direct route may exisit, compared to regional airport prices makes my point. The smaller regional airports flying into hubs and feeding the monsters pay over the odds. The hubs simply would not exist without being fed in this way, and they exploit their positions to gouge those passengers for who little or no choice exists.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

The smaller regional airports flying into hubs and feeding the monsters pay over the odds. The hubs simply would not exist without being fed in this way, and they exploit their positions to gouge those passengers for who little or no choice exists.

But it has nothing to do with weather the flight is to a hub or not. One example is right here at home for me - Tampa. There is a small airline called Gulfstream. They fly 19 seat Beachcraft 1900's. They serve several cities in Florida and throughout the Bahamas. I think they have also opened service around Ohio as well. Anyway, in Florida they fly flights as a Continental connection carrier, and one such route is Tallahassee to Tampa. Neither city is a hub, and TLH is dinky. 10 gates or so in the whole airport. Only one x-ray machine and one metal detector at the security checkpoint. And they charge a nice high fare.

Delta used to fly TLH to Miami and did the same thing. Miami is not a hub for Delta. And there are plenty of such examples all over the US.

Also your AA/BA example is flawed as well. Until recently with the introduction of the new Open Skies agreements, it was very limited who could fly between the us and LHR (2 US airlines and 2 British airlines as I recall.) There is no such restriction on domestic flights in Atlanta.

[tionaluster]

Well, the flight I am taking on Christmas Day is now back up and listed on Delta.com with many available seats.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by tionaluster

Well, the flight I am taking on Christmas Day is now back up and listed on Delta.com with many available seats.

Not only many available seats but it's the least expensive option for BDL-PBI that day as well! Keep in mind on the MD80 there are ~30 seats of the 128 in coach which are blocked for airport assignment but appear to be occupied on the seat map. Just counting assigned seats there are 43 in coach and 7 in first class. Not a lot but loads on Christmas day are usually light anyway. Still keep an eye on it since they still have time to reevaluate the loads and may yet decide to cancel the non-stop and put everyone on the flight through Atlanta. The flight from BDL to ATL which departs at the same time appears to be a bit less than half full so there's still plenty of room to accommodate the PBI passengers if need be.