[goosed]

July 20, 2009

Northwest Customer Care Dept.
P.O. Box 1908
Minot, ND 58702

Delta Airlines
P.O. Box 20980
Atlanta, GA 30320-2980

On July 10 my husband and I flew from the Twin Cities to Austin, TX on Northwest flight no. 3468, departing (that is, until the goose pooped) at 2:20 p.m. I was in the bulkhead aisle, my husband had been bumped to first class.

There was on-board our flight a live, uncaged goose. The flight was delayed slightly as apparently it pooped all over somewhere back in coach, and there was much running back and forth with plastic bags. Shortly into the flight, the flight attendant showed up and told the gentleman next to me that he had to change seats with a woman further back who “recently had foot surgery and needed to elevate her foot.” (No mention of a goose.) He dutifully moved, and down plopped a woman with a large white goose on her lap. My first reaction was that it must be a toy. Then it started honking. It smelled. It fluffed its feathers, and they flew around. In about a minute I was getting congested, so I was also moved to first class – being, I learned, her second very unhappy seatmate – and of course at that point the woman finally had two seats to herself.

When we questioned Delta personnel, we were told it was some sort of “emotional distress assistance animal,” and that there was a federal law requiring airlines to accommodate such persons if they have a letter from their doctor.

This goose was the distressed one as it periodically started honking loudly, especially as we were landing, causing the woman to attempt to calm it down. Certainly those forced to share their small (and expensive) space with the thing were distressed. Airline personnel were not happy – and encouraged us to complain. The woman? She smiled the whole time, telling people she had flown with her goose 30-some times.

We were stunned, to put it mildly. I’ve heard about the buses in, say, Guatemala, where every second person has a chicken or whatever farm animal on their lap, heading to market. But somehow I doubt the cost of those buses is comparable to an airline ticket.

The plane that landed in the Hudson crossed my mind. I’m sure it would have been extremely helpful to have a terrified, honking goose flapping all over the cabin during their evacuation. THIS IS NOT A SAFE SITUATION (among other obvious problems), and I cannot believe that any non-third-world airline would tolerate it. And any person who is so mentally ill that he/she cannot fly without a goose (or similar “distress assistance”) loose on their lap or under their feet does not belong on a plane in the first place and should choose another form of transportation. Flying these days is a bit nerve-wracking for all of us in the best of circumstances.

When we arrived back home I called Northwest but was twice kicked out of the phone system. Then I called Delta, as the employees all had Delta IDs on their uniforms. After the woman on the phone had recovered somewhat from the shock of a goose on a plane, she said I would have to complain to Northwest as it had been “their flight.” I don’t know who’s in charge anymore, so I’m complaining to both of you. Frankly, after this experience I wonder if anybody is.

[goosed]

I tho't I was posting this letter to the Delta site but somehow it went astray. If somebody out there knows how to move it, be my guest... But at any rate, it appears this problem is not restricted to Delta.

[justme]

Wow, that's crazy! I know there is in fact law in place that requires airlines to allow "assistance" animals on board, and I have seen a wide variety of animals used as both emotional and physical assistants. But if the animal is not "behaving," for lack of a better term, it should be caged. As far as who to take up your complaint with, who did you pay for your ticket? The airline that you paid is the airline you should talk to. Even though they were wearing Delta uniforms, they are in fact still technically NW employees until labor representation (s#!tty union) issues are resolved. I agree that the goose should have been caged BTW, just in case I didn't make that clear.

[PHXFlyer]

I was wondering when this story would show up here although the details are somewhat different. It first appeared on FlyerTalk.com but according to the post there the goose originated out of Milwaukee (MKE) and not the Twin Cities (MSP).

Details not agreeing aside, the fact that even a "domesticated" goose could be considered an "emotional assistance" animal is just plain absurd. The lengths people will go to fly with pets without paying for them is ridiculous. Apparently all one needs to do is have a psychiatrist or psychologist deem it necessary and a vet to sign off on the paperwork and your average household pet with not training whatsoever can travel with the same status as a highly trained seeing eye dog, mobility assistance dog or one trained to assist the deaf and hard of hearing. In other words legitimate service animals.

I realize there are people with a fear of flying, claustrophobia, agoraphobia and other challenges however if one cannot "survive" without one's pet at their side constantly for the duration of a trans-continental flight then one needs to either medicate one's self accordingly or consider an alternate mode of transportation.

I recall a flight I was on from LAX to Newark with a woman who had what I call a "pocketbook dog" with her. When I questioned the flight attendant why the dog wasn't in a kennel she rolled her eyes and said, in an appropriately sarcastic tone, "It's an emotional and medical assistance dog." She was seated across the aisle from me in first class and once the meal service was over she made a point of telling everyone how the dog can detect if she's about to have a seizure.

Now I can see how that would be helpful if she were driving a car or at the grocery store. Pull the car over and call 911 or sit down on the floor and alert a store employee. How in the hell would it make a difference at 35,000 feet? Simply alert the flight crew that she sometimes has seizures and if she starts to have one the crew would be trained how to handle it. Having the dog there to give a "two minute warning"" isn't going to change anything. You're still in a tube and seated and belted into an aircraft seat. You aren't going to cross the median and cause a freeway pile-up!

It's out of hand and the airlines need to stand up to these "fragile" people. Unfortunately their hands are tied by laws that pander to those with"special needs." Don't complain to the airline but write a letter to your Senators and House representative instead.

[goosed]

I do so appreciate the comments by justme and PHX Flyer, and I checked out the web link. As far as the "assistance goose" being seen in a different airport, I'm not surprised as my husband heard the "lady" in question telling someone she and her goose had flown over 30 times. A wheelchair that time - on our plane a claim of "recent foot surgery" (altho' I saw no evidence of a problem with her foot). Possibly the same person, but in both cases she and her goose got more cabin room than the normal person has... At any rate, I have now found the following posts on-line (they blatantly explain how to manipulate the law). This is worse than pathetic. I have mailed paper copies to both NW and Delta, and also e-mailed my letter to NW. And thanks for the suggestion to contact our Congresspersons re the issue. It's too bad the rest of us have to waste our time pointing out insanity...

"Airlines and other establishments CANNOT ask you what ailment you are suffering from to avoid discrimination. It's a legal issue... Also, go to www.sitstay.com where you can buy him a vest and cards outlining his purpose. If anyone asks you any questions, all you do is give them that card- it answers everything. My girlfriend flies with her dog and just told me about it after I paid 180 bucks!...

"Northwest and Delta now charge $300 round trip for an in cabin pet. I was able to get a letter from my psychiatrist stating that my dog is an emotional support animal, and for my next trip she will travel with no fee, and I was refunded the $300 I was charged (and paid) for a trip in February. I was hoping to find a vest she could wear that states she is an ESA, but so far, haven't been able to find one. But I found a tag online.

"I think with a good printer, some nice paper, and a little creativity you could write that letter for yourself. (Then, if you get busted, plead multiple personality disorder.)"

[goosed]

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3



I do so appreciate the comments by justme and PHX Flyer, and I checked out the web link. As far as the "assistance goose" being seen in a different airport, I'm not surprised as my husband heard the "lady" in question telling someone she and her goose had flown over 30 times. A wheelchair that time - on our plane a claim of "recent foot surgery" (altho' I saw no evidence of a problem with her foot). Possibly the same person, but in both cases she and her goose got more cabin room than the normal person has... At any rate, I have now found the following posts on-line (they blatantly explain how to manipulate the law). This is worse than pathetic. I have mailed paper copies to both NW and Delta, and also e-mailed my letter to NW. And thanks for the suggestion to contact our Congresspersons re the issue. It's too bad the rest of us have to waste our time pointing out insanity...

"Airlines and other establishments CANNOT ask you what ailment you are suffering from to avoid discrimination. It's a legal issue... Also, go to www.sitstay.com where you can buy him a vest and cards outlining his purpose. If anyone asks you any questions, all you do is give them that card- it answers everything. My girlfriend flies with her dog and just told me about it after I paid 180 bucks!...

"Northwest and Delta now charge $300 round trip for an in cabin pet. I was able to get a letter from my psychiatrist stating that my dog is an emotional support animal, and for my next trip she will travel with no fee, and I was refunded the $300 I was charged (and paid) for a trip in February. I was hoping to find a vest she could wear that states she is an ESA, but so far, haven't been able to find one. But I found a tag online.

"I think with a good printer, some nice paper, and a little creativity you could write that letter for yourself. (Then, if you get busted, plead multiple personality disorder.)"

[Leatherboy2006]

It's interesting what people are now a days claiming to be emotional distress animals and a business has to let the animal in cause it then falls under the ADA (Americans with disablities) or face a large fine for not allowing it. Sorry but I do not want to have dinner next to someone's emotional distress animal that is maybe a snake, I would need something then to calm down my emotional distress

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by goosed

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3



I do so appreciate the comments by justme and PHX Flyer, and I checked out the web link. As far as the "assistance goose" being seen in a different airport, I'm not surprised as my husband heard the "lady" in question telling someone she and her goose had flown over 30 times. A wheelchair that time - on our plane a claim of "recent foot surgery" (altho' I saw no evidence of a problem with her foot). Possibly the same person, but in both cases she and her goose got more cabin room than the normal person has... At any rate, I have now found the following posts on-line (they blatantly explain how to manipulate the law). This is worse than pathetic. I have mailed paper copies to both NW and Delta, and also e-mailed my letter to NW. And thanks for the suggestion to contact our Congresspersons re the issue. It's too bad the rest of us have to waste our time pointing out insanity...

"Airlines and other establishments CANNOT ask you what ailment you are suffering from to avoid discrimination. It's a legal issue... Also, go to www.sitstay.com where you can buy him a vest and cards outlining his purpose. If anyone asks you any questions, all you do is give them that card- it answers everything. My girlfriend flies with her dog and just told me about it after I paid 180 bucks!...

"Northwest and Delta now charge $300 round trip for an in cabin pet. I was able to get a letter from my psychiatrist stating that my dog is an emotional support animal, and for my next trip she will travel with no fee, and I was refunded the $300 I was charged (and paid) for a trip in February. I was hoping to find a vest she could wear that states she is an ESA, but so far, haven't been able to find one. But I found a tag online.

"I think with a good printer, some nice paper, and a little creativity you could write that letter for yourself. (Then, if you get busted, plead multiple personality disorder.)"

Nice finds! Can you post the links to where you found these statements?

[PHXFlyer]

Okay, I just couldn't resist!

Originally Posted by goosed

The plane that landed in the Hudson crossed my mind. I’m sure it would have been extremely helpful to have a terrified, honking goose flapping all over the cabin during their evacuation. THIS IS NOT A SAFE SITUATION (among other obvious problems), and I cannot believe that any non-third-world airline would tolerate it.

FA Safety Announcements (Revised):

"In the unlikely event of a water landing, your Emotional Assistance Goose becomes a flotation device!"

[goosed]

to PHXFlyer:

http://prettyinthecity.blogspot.com/...t-animals.html

"In the unlikely event of a water landing, your Emotional Assistance Goose becomes a flotation device!" Ohhh, too funny!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by goosed

to PHXFlyer:

http://prettyinthecity.blogspot.com/...t-animals.html

"In the unlikely event of a water landing, your Emotional Assistance Goose becomes a flotation device!" Ohhh, too funny!

Wow. Thanks for the link. I can't believe some of the blatant abuse simply because they feel the pet fees are too high and/or unfair. There are people who really need service animals just to do things able persons take for granted every day like cross the street without being hit by a bus.

I really liked this comment:

I think it is crazy that airlines charge so much to bring our pets on a flight. My dog exceeds the weight limit to fly in the cabin (I believe no more than 20 pounds???) and yet he can't fly in cargo either because as a Pug he is in that smashed nose category. Okay, there is a proper name for that but I couldn't think of it. Bronch something maybe. Anyhow that is so unfair that they charge so much to bring your pet. Bev should totally have her own seat in First Class for that price!

What? She equates paying $150 one-way for your pet to the price of a first class ticket? No wonder these people have unreasonable service expectations at the fares they pay!

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

OK airline folks, here it comes:

People like this are similiar to the women who (falsely) claim to be pregnant in order to be boarded faster. They both will ruin any privilege, or right, for those who genuinely need it.

During a long distance Amtrak trip a woman had an emotional support dog crap all over the bedding in her sleeping compartment. I only became aware of it because she was in the same car as I was and she had her door open. Fortunately she wasn't next door!

If the airlines can't stop, or restrict, this then this is something that truly warrants an "extra fee," and a hefty one at that! Depending on where one lives there is, now, an airline dedicated solely to flying pets. See http://petairways.com/ . For those who will, really, go banannas if they are without Fifi for a few hours there is something called medication. If you can get a doctor to write a note for Fifi that same doctor can prescribe some tranquilizers. Just don't wash them down with booze!

[goosed]

Wow, I think this hit a nerve! Leatherboy 2006 suggested the possibility of eating dinner next to a snake. Actually, it is probably only a matter of time before someone attempts to board with a "therapy snake" draped around their neck. My understanding is that if an airline refuses to board a "therapy" animal, etc. they may be charged with a misdemeanor. Well, how much can that possibly cost them compared to what it may cost going forward with this stupidity? Apparently we have a carelessly written law, being ridiculously interpreted. Is there no airline with the backbone to challenge this? (By the way, I am not an animal hater, and believe that trained service dogs, etc. have the same rights to access as people. However, a trained animal does not poop all over and then make a racket throughout the entire trip.)

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Since the airlines aren't shy about ignoring regulations this is one they could probably ignore for a few years before the big-time fines start coming in. If ignoring the rights of involuntarily bumped passengers only cost Delta Air 175K then it might be cost effective, at least in the short run, to ignore the regulation about emotional support animals.

As to the long term: How can the government say animals outside a carrier are LESS problematic than someone on a stretcher? In other words, if you can ban someone on a stretcher, then why can you not ban someone wanting to bring on an animal with no carrier?

[justme]

Originally Posted by goosed

By the way, I am not an animal hater, and believe that trained service dogs, etc. have the same rights to access as people. However, a trained animal does not poop all over and then make a racket throughout the entire trip.

I agree... Maybe they should change the law to require not only a doctor's note stating that the animal is needed for support/service, but also documentation of the animal completing some sort of required training to qualify as such. The way I understand it now, ANY animal qualifies if your psych says it's for support. But psychs aren't animal trainers, and if an animal is going to be "loose" on an airplane it should be trained by a professional IMO.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by justme

I agree... Maybe they should change the law to require not only a doctor's note stating that the animal is needed for support/service, but also documentation of the animal completing some sort of required training to qualify as such. The way I understand it now, ANY animal qualifies if your psych says it's for support. But psychs aren't animal trainers, and if an animal is going to be "loose" on an airplane it should be trained by a professional IMO.

Why not just make the transport of "emotional support animals" an expense which can be reimbursed through insurance? If someone is legitimately under the care of a psychiatrist (not a psychologist who merely has the same level of training as a high school teacher but a true professional who went to medical school) then the cost of traveling with said animal should be a covered expense like medication. This way the airline just charges for all animals in the cabin and it's then up to the passenger to submit the bill to their insurance company.

[justme]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Why not just make the transport of "emotional support animals" an expense which can be reimbursed through insurance? If someone is legitimately under the care of a psychiatrist (not a psychologist who merely has the same level of training as a high school teacher but a true professional who went to medical school) then the cost of traveling with said animal should be a covered expense like medication. This way the airline just charges for all animals in the cabin and it's then up to the passenger to submit the bill to their insurance company.

Excellent idea to be reimbursed by insurance. I still think there there should be a requirement for documentation that the animal went thru training though. And I meant psychiatrist when I typed "psych."

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by justme

Excellent idea to be reimbursed by insurance. I still think there there should be a requirement for documentation that the animal went thru training though. And I meant psychiatrist when I typed "psych."

Any "documentation" can be (easily) forged. The insurance companies are trained to spot fraud. By having the airline charge for the pet regardless of the passenger's "disability" places the burden of proof on the passenger and the decision to pay on the insurance company. For the passengers who travel with pets and pay while others are getting away with fraud it levels the playing field and takes the burden of the "enforcement" decision off of the airlines and their employees. Let's face it. One can get a job as a gate agent with a high school diploma. If a medical diagnosis has been legitimately obtained it shouldn't be up to the airport agents to sort it out.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Health insurance pays for actual medical treatment, not transportation. Claim forms, as submitted by a doctor, must contain a specific numeric code(s) which identify the treatment(s) given. What is the code number for a flight to Chicago??

As Phx pointed out there will be people who will forge documentation. The only realistic way to deal with the issue of "emotional support" animals is to enact regulations restricting the type and size animal that can be brought on board. In addition, imposing a fee at least equal to what is charged for a conventional pet in a carrier seems fair. Ideally, if stretchers are not allowed on scheduled flights (and rightly so) then why allow uncrated animals??

[Gromit801]

The good old ADA in full color. That act of congress pretty much left it wide open for anyone to claim that practically any animal can be a service animal. Something that certainly needs to be fixed.

[abutterfinger25]

Let me make some general comments here. First of all, the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to the airlines. But it does apply to the airports. The airlines have their own version of the ADA which is the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA). The ACAA is implemented by a federal regulation , 14 CFR Part 382 (Part 382). A new version of Part 382 went into effect on May 13, 2009

14 CFR 382.117 deals with service animals. (a copy of the regulation can be found here: http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/rules.htm).

The rule states:

(e) If a passenger seeks to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal, you are not required to accept the animal for transportation in the cabin unless the passenger provides you current documentation (i.e., no older than one year from the date of the passengers scheduled initial flight) on the letterhead of a licensed mental health professional including a medical doctor specifically treating the passenger’s mental or emotional disability (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker) stating the following:
(1) The passenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM IV);
(2) The passenger needs the emotional support or psychiatric service animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at the passenger’s destination;
(3) The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional, and the passenger is under his or her professional care; and
(4) The date and type of the mental health professional’s license and the state or other jurisdiction in which it was issued.
(f)You are never required to accommodate certain unusual service animals (e.g., snakes, other reptiles, ferrets, rodents, and spiders) as service animals in the cabin. With respect to all other animals, including unusual or exotic animals that are presented as service animals (e.g., miniature horses, pigs, monkeys), as a carrier you must determine whether any factors preclude their traveling in the cabin as service animals (e.g., whether the animal is too large or heavy to be accommodated in the cabin, whether the animal would pose a direct threat to the health or safety of others, whether it would cause a significant disruption of cabin service, whether it would be prohibited from entering a foreign country that is the flight’s destination). If no such factors preclude the animal from traveling in the cabin, you must permit it to do so. However, as a foreign carrier, you are not required to carry service animals other than dogs.

The emotional support/therapy animal has been a very contentious issue and has been for some time. When the new rule was drafted, the Department recieved and reviewed thousands of comments from members of the general public, the carriers and air transport associates, and service animal organizations. These comments were evaluated and used to draft the new language.
And before you ask, I had nothing to do with the drafting of the rule. I am only tasked with enforcing it and currently have another "goose issue" with American Airlines.

--
I need to double check our guidance document issued to the carriers, but I believe the carrier may require any birds traveling as service animals to travel in cages.

[justme]

Excellent, excellent info Butter. If indeed an airline did deem that an animal, let's say a goose for this conversation, would preclude it from travelling in the cabin, who would say if they were correct in their determination or not? I can hear it now, "They told me I couldn't bring my goose on board even though I have a note from my psychiatrist saying it is an emotional service animal." Who would determine if the passengers rights were violated? The DOT?

[PHXFlyer]

Personally I think any psychiatrist who would write such a letter needs some psychoanalysis him/herself!

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

whether the animal would pose a direct threat to the health or safety of others, whether it would cause a significant disruption of cabin service

I won't say you could drive a Mack truck through this loophole, but definitely a large SUV. As to the matter of an uncrated goose: This passage seems to back-up the airline on all counts. The goose crapping on other passengers, or elsewhere in the cabin, is covered by the "health" clause. An unhappy goose will bite. So the "safety" clause applies. And a goose sitting in the aisle definitely blocks the food/drink trolley and interferes with the movement of the flight attendants (even though, in some cases, the goose probably has a better personality!) so the "cabin service" clause would apply.

For eight years I worked in an office campus which was innundated by geese. I swear those animals must live on ExLax. Walking to lunch was an obstacle course!

As to the responsibility for interpretation: My understanding of the Federal system is that, yes, the DOT interprets. However, if someone is unhappy with the DOT interpretation, the US Court of Appeals For The District of Columbia has original jurisdiction and thus can review the DOT determination.

[goosed]

I'm encouraged at least by the thoughtful discussion! Thanks to butterfinger for sharing the official wordage. I'm interested in whether or not you found if an airline can require birds brought on-board to be caged? And (whew!) relieved that nobody can travel with a loose snake - yet. Regarding health issues, the first comment on our story by the startled relatives we were traveling to visit was "What about bird flu?" It's insane to force someone to be confined for hours next to a pig, a bird, or anything else implicated in spreading illnesses.