[reham_kouzman]

Dear Sir or Madam:
This letter is to complain about the quality of service (or lack thereof) my family recently received from your airline and in particular, from one of your customer service representatives by the names of Marina Velkojvic .
On August 3rd my wife and infant daughter arrived at John F. Kennedy airport scheduled to fly to Cairo direct on flight 84 to Cairo . Upon arrival at the airport, and after spending more than one hour in line to check in, plus another 30 minutes to be cleared by security and just prior to boarding, we learned that their flight was overbooked. Although my friend’s wife who did check in the same time my wife did , she got the chance to have a seat in the plane.
Inexplicably, my wife and infant daughter were singled out by Marina Velkojvic and told by her that she could not board and that they could be booked on another flight to Cairo that day.
Ms. Velkojvic suggested that my wife fly overnight via Air France which would have a layover in France for about 4 hours. My wife respectfully explained that this wasn’t a feasible option because she was traveling with an infant and that a direct flight (such as flight 84) would be best for her.
At this point I was about to exit the parking garage when my wife called me and I immediately returned to the gate to see what else could be done. I personally spoke with Ms. Velkojvic and explained that waiting for 4 hours to catch a connecting flight in Paris with an infant child was just not an option we could accept. It was at this point that Ms. Velkojvic became unprofessional, rude and threatening. She raised her voice and clearly said in a condescending tone heard by everyone within 10 feet of us – “I can’t do anything more for you and I don’t have the time for you, decide now what you want or I’ll call the cops”.
This statement was completely and utterly shocking.
I must be honest when I say that I had no other feeling aside from complete astonishment overcoming my entire being at this point. I could not (and still do not) understand how a trained reservation agent could expect a woman with an infant child to accept a layover of 4 hours in a foreign country. Does this seem rational? Where exactly is the common sense in this request? Couldn’t she have asked a man traveling alone to perhaps accept the layover connection?
Realizing that I was dealing with a completely inept and emotionless person, I asked Ms. Velkojvic where I could retrieve my luggage. She responded heartlessly with “look for it downstairs”.
As I began to walk away I asked Ms. Velkojvic how I could secure a refund and she handed me a piece of paper with your 1-800-221-1212 number on it. I also asked for my ticket to be returned and she refused to give that to me. At that point, I asked for her name and ID and informed her that I would be filing a formal complaint with the airline and she said that they’re not allowed to give their name to anyone. I began to walk away when, several (not one or two, but close to six people) came up to me and provided me with her name.
Needless to say, your customers are more caring then your staff.
I called the number provided by Ms. Velkojvic as I waited to retrieve my luggage when the customer service representative on the phone explained that the customer services counter could provide me with a voucher for the refund. At 2:00 am and nearly 6 hours after my wife should have left, I spoke to Sheyla Cacao about my refund. After explaining my problem to her several times Ms. Cacao gave me a voucher for $954.10 instead of $1,020.00. I asked Ms. Cacao to explain this (since my wife’s ticket was $815 and my daughter’s was $205) .
Furthermore, I was told that my luggage was not there and that they’d need to give me a luggage claim ticket (JFKD52630) so that it could be delivered to me within 24 hours and until now I didn’t get my all baggage. I left terminal 3 at nearly 4:00 am in the morning having to pay parking fees of $70.
Needless to say, I was quite frustrated and remain quite angry about the entire experience.
I expected a much higher level of service from your airline, and I am truly quite disappointed. Airlines are, by virtue of the business they’re in, an extension of the hospitality industry. Planes (irrespective of the carrier) are a dime a dozen and it’s the customer service that differentiates the carriers. Because I don’t wish this experience to happen to any of my loved ones, I will be informing my friends and family about this incident. The experience was difficult and frustrating, I believe your airline is responsible for all expenses.

[Silent Bob]

First I don't think your wife was singled out by the gate agent; she didn't pick through the crowd and go "hmmmmmm.... who can I torture today?" it would appear that given the time your wife checked in, she didn't have a seat assignment on her boarding pass. It may be possible that you requested a seat prior, but upon arrival she didn't have one. When no volunteers came forth to try and free up a seat for your wife, The agent gave her an option for an indirect flight, but it would appear that you she pushed for a direct, which you were entitled to, but more than likely she would have to leave the following day. I'm assuming by this complaint that that wasn't acceptable. So not only did the wife push for the direct but then you step in and things get blown up to the point where the agent gets loud. So yea, I'm gonna call this tale one-sided as I'm sure there is more.

But you guys blew it. Believe it or not, because your wife was "bumped" from her flight, you were due compensation. You could have either taken the indirect flight or taken the direct flight the following day (or whenever the next available direct flight was available), she could have gotten a cash compensation maximum 800 (dependent on the type of ticket you purchased). So basically by blowing up at the gate agent and demanding a refund you lose. I'm sure the agent tried to tell you the rules, but it would appear you guys were to angry to listen. I mean yea if i were an infrequent traveler i would be upset to, but to get back 800 bucks from a $1000, yea that would have calmed me down real quick.

I would write DOT (or if Abutter reads this complaint) to see if you are stilled allowed the cash compensation, but i think since you guys took the refund, then that may no longer be the case.

[PHXFlyer]

In the OP's case since the re-accommodation would have them arriving at their destination more than four hours later they would be entitled to 2x the value of the JFK-Cairo portion of the ticket. Assuming the "value" is half the round-trip cost they would probably be looking at a cash compensation for the entire amount paid for both tickets PLUS re-accommodation on a later flight which could have been the non-stop one day later. If there was no room on the Delta non-stop you they could have even requested to be booked on another airline with non-stop service or a better routing with less layover and no overnight flying.

SO had the OP and his wife kept their cool and read the Involuntary Denied Boarding disclosure that should be posted at the counter or provided to them by the agent they would have been rescheduled to fly to Cairo later or the next day AND walked out of the airport with a check for $1020 in their pocket. Obviously that did not happen AND once again we hear "I was perfectly calm, rational and reasonable but the airline employee threatened to call the cops!" Despite what another contributor to this board may tell you the threat or actual involvement of law enforcement is not casually invoked. Again we have a very one-sided story. I will be forwarding a copy of the original post to Delta so that they may advise them Ms. Velkojvic has been implicated in a possibly exaggerated account so as to give Delta or Ms. Velkojvic the opportunity to provide the ohter side of the story and set the record straight.

[abutterfinger25]

The denied boarding compensation (DBC) is paid as soon as the passenger passenger is denied boarding and the alternate transportation is offered. Providing of course that the passenger meets all the check-in requirements. It does not matter if the passenger accepts the alternate transportation or not.

I am going to assume that Reham's wife made the met the carrier's check-in requirements (including being at the gate within x minutes of scheduled departure - too lazy to look up what Delta's is at JFK). Since the alternate arragements is scheduled to arrive more than 4 hours after her original scheduled flight (again, an assumption based on the stated 4 hour layover in France - Paris?), she would be entitled to 200 percent of the fare (for that flight segement, not the entire round trip ticket) for both her AND the child, up to the maximun of $800 per passenger. Just factoring in 1/2 of what you paid: the combined DBC would be $1005 for both your wife and your child. - Please note, that I am just assuming that the one way ticket is 1/2 of what you paid, most likely, it is not.

Since you did not accept the alternate transportation, I would argue that you are entitled to a full refund of the total amount paid. Just like if the flight was cancelled and you did not accept the reaccomodation. Note - the carrier can choose not to refund taxes if they have already paid those taxes to the government(s).

As for why your wife was picked to be denied boarding, Bob is basically right. They did not just pick her. The carriers have a formula for who gets bumped based on a number of variables... Amount paid, check in time, ect. The computers do all the crunching and the agent just reads the name that pops up.

If you want to file a formal complaint with DOT, you can do so at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/complaints.htm

[abutterfinger25]

One more things, can this complaint be moved over the Delta forum, and out of American.

[reham_kouzman]

IAM NOT ASK ABOUT THE MONEY , IAM TALKING ABOUT they way DELTA CUSTOMER SERVICE DEAL WITH US.

[rudybjr]

Next time you book a flight make sure you get a pre-reserved seat. This makes it possible for people who arrived after you to still check in even if they don't have a seat for you. Those prereserved seats are held until about 30 minutes (depends on airline and flight) from departure.

[jimworcs]

You should pursue the money.. it is the only thing that gets airlines attention...

I'm sure the agent tried to tell you the rules

Are you kidding? You are unbelieveably naive or just being mendatious

Involuntary Denied Boarding disclosure that should be posted at the counter or provided to them by the agent

You are sure you are a frequent flyer? It is often not posted and being provided with accurate and timely information by an airline agent is like finding hen's teeth.

don't think your wife was singled out by the gate agent; she didn't pick through the crowd and go "hmmmmmm.... who can I torture today?

His point was, surely an organisation that had an ounce of decency would use criteria which takes account of the vulnerability of the passenger. A lone mother travelling with an infant child should not be chosen for this...

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

You should pursue the money.. it is the only thing that gets airlines attention...



Are you kidding? You are unbelieveably naive or just being mendatious



You are sure you are a frequent flyer? It is often not posted and being provided with accurate and timely information by an airline agent is like finding hen's teeth.



His point was, surely an organisation that had an ounce of decency would use criteria which takes account of the vulnerability of the passenger. A lone mother travelling with an infant child should not be chosen for this...

Delta recently received a hefty fine for not following correct procedures when there was an over-sale. Now I'm not saying, and neither did the DOT, that Delta wasn't following the rules the majority of the time but the occurrences where the rules weren't being followed to the letter were enough to warrant the fine.

This incident occurred afterward and I'm sure with the fine fresh in their memory and the mandatory recurrent training they have received as a stipulation for mitigating the fine they are following procedures much more consistently now.

As for using the criteria you suggest that can't happen. The criteria used on overbooked flights is last to check in is first to be bumped. They don't "single people out" as was implicated by the OP. What you suggest is that when denied boarding needs to occur for weight and balance issues they should start with the overweight passengers first.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Again we have a very one-sided story. I will be forwarding a copy of the original post to Delta so that they may advise them Ms. Velkojvic (a Delta employee) has been implicated in a possibly exaggerated account so as to give Delta or Ms. Velkojvic the opportunity to provide the ohter side of the story and set the record straight.

I'm sorry Phx...but...

You, certainly, have the right to forward a copy of any post on here to whomever you wish. However, if I were on your side of the "airline vs. consumer" equation I would NOT have included this comment in a post. If you had identified yourself as a high-ranking official with the Air Transport Assn., or anyone working for Delta Air Lines, or ANY airline for that matter, perhaps I would not have been so "impressed" with this passage. Unfortunately, my understanding is that, excluding anything the moderator has to say, you are presenting yourself as an impartial "average citizen," and not affiliated with any airline or airline-related organization. Last comment on this topic: Hopefully this is not true, but some people might wonder if Delta is "compensating" you in return for doing things like forwarding posts. At a minimum, a little more detail, from you, as to why you feel impelled to do something like this might clear-up misconceptions.

As to the threat to call the police: May the OP was behaving like a raving maniac. Maybe she dropped her bloomers and "mooned" that Delta agent. Or, MAYBE, there was a long line (this was JFK) and the "police threat" was that agent's idea of how to get rid of what she felt was a "problem" customer, even though that customer's behavior did not rise to a level warranting police intervention. If it were me, I would have walked away from the counter, then taken that smart a** agent up on her "invitation," and called the cops MYSELF! Customers have been known to do this with "difficult" staff. Also, I don’t think one can rule-out said threat as a device to throw the customer “off-balance,” and avoid a situation where the higher levels of compensation, mentioned in other posts, would be asked for.

It sounds like, from the customer’s perspective, scheduling was a major issue here. So I will assume Air Egypt, or a more decent airline (yes, Lufthansa) were not options.

[jimworcs]

What you suggest is that when denied boarding needs to occur for weight and balance issues they should start with the overweight passengers first.

What are you talking about? That is a ridiculous analogy. I am saying when a flight is overbooked, the airline has to select some passengers who will be denied boarding. It should first ask for volunteers, but when none are forthcoming, it should use some compassion and common sense in deciding who should be denied boarding. In my category of those who should not be selected FOR EXAMPLE are:

1. People with a disability
2. Elderly frail people
3. Unaccompanied parents with a small child under 6 in tow
4. Unaccompanied minors under 18

It is just basic human decency and common sense.....

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

What are you talking about? That is a ridiculous analogy. I am saying when a flight is overbooked, the airline has to select some passengers who will be denied boarding. It should first ask for volunteers, but when none are forthcoming, it should use some compassion and common sense in deciding who should be denied boarding. In my category of those who should not be selected FOR EXAMPLE are:

1. People with a disability
2. Elderly frail people
3. Unaccompanied parents with a small child under 6 in tow
4. Unaccompanied minors under 18

It is just basic human decency and common sense.....

And discriminatory. Basing the criteria on inverse check-in time does not take any factors which could be deemed discriminatory into account. Suppose a business person who needs to be at a critical meeting checks in 50 minutes early while a young mother traveling with a lap child barely makes the 45 minute cutoff time. Now the flight is over-sold and they tell the businessman that even though he checked in first and got the last seat assignment because he's flying solo and there's a mother with a lap child that he'll be the one left behind. Pardon the pun but that's just not gonna fly!

Also if the airlines did as you suggest where do they draw the line? Just how elderly or frail would someone need to be so that they aren't bumped? Which disabilities determine that someone must fly when there's an over-sold situation? Using the inverse check-in time makes the decision cut and dried.

[Silent Bob]

[q] From Jimworcs: What are you talking about? That is a ridiculous analogy. I am saying when a flight is overbooked, the airline has to select some passengers who will be denied boarding.[/q]

Actually the op does state that it was mentioned to his wife that the flight was overbooked. this would mean that Delta should have solicited volunteers. The reason why the OP does not mention this, it's because he was not there until well after. Overbooking sucks jim, no question, and I'm a believer that such a thing shouldn't happen no matter what the no-show ratio is or whatever the airlines call it that makes them do it, it simply should not be done. Also, and this is from a person who's been in that overbooked situation (but never getting the compensation because miraculously a seat appeared), but the airline personel do not select people to be on the oversold list, it happens during check in, when you arrive and you have no seat assignment meaning it would look like this (--) with instructions to check in at the gate. How does a computer know the difference between people? Yea you can input that data but the computer is still a machine. Sure the agent knows, but now they have to ask people to give up their seats and if these people, who can see a mom and baby waiting to get a seat choose not to, then do we then blame them for not being human? Noooooooo we blame the airline, who actually stands to lose money because they have to give these people back money PLUS pay to put them on another airline. The OP could have chosen to work something out that was beneficial to his wife, Delta has no choice but to do so, it was their fault they overbooked, but the OP chose to walk away and take his refund with him. That was a dumb move no matter how you look at it. Oh and Reham, you can't say it wasn't about the money because you talk about it in the last two paragraphs.

Oh and jim, glad to see you back around these parts. Even though we choose to agree to disagree, your still get cool points in my book. Butch I've just decided to ignore all your post, really since you choose to go off on tangents and talk about things that have nothing to do with what's being talked about while repeating the same lines over and over "blah blah blah, call the cops blah blah blah go amtrak and lufthansa blah blah blah I am a puffer fish look at how big i can get... please? pretty please look at me?" sad....

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Butch I've just decided to ignore all your post, really since you choose to go off on tangents and talk about things that have nothing to do with what's being talked about while repeating the same lines over and over "blah blah blah, call the cops blah blah blah go amtrak and lufthansa blah blah blah I am a puffer fish look at how big i can get... please? pretty please look at me?" sad....

Once again, Silent, thanks for the free advertising. "Puff fish" also thanks you for the air and your assistance in allowing "puff," to, as you say, "become bigger than life."

Assuming you weren't lying about being in favor of the types of passenger rights I mentioned (clever airline shills WILL lie about this,) then do you have a spouse, significant other, pet fish, anything, that works for an airline? Or, is it you and your other self? I really don't think it's the latter. But, for one who doesn't know any better, your posts certainly suggest that. As you say, Silent...

Sad!

[JR in Orlando]

If his wife and infant child being on a direct flight is so important, why is he not upset that his "friend's wife" who got a seat on the flight did not surrender her seat to his wife and infant. He criticizes the airlines for not being compasionate, but even his "friend's wife" does not give up her seat. There isn't even any discussion of this having been tried. Does this mean that even the "friend's wife" did not feel a non-direct flight would be unduly hard on the wife and infant?

If two people are going to the same destination and one of them obtains a seat assignment and one does not, couldn't the one with the seat assignment always "volunteer" to give up their seat so the other could go?

[jimworcs]

And discriminatory

To discriminate is not in itself illegal, to discriminate using unfair criteria is illegal. Airlines do not allow unaccompanied minors to travel on the last flight. This is discriminatory. It is also common sense and no reasonable court would find that such actions are illegal.

The act of denying a customer a seat on a plane they have paid for because the airline has chosen to sell more seats that it actually has available requires the airline to discriminate. There is no other way to deny some people boarding. They may use a variety of methods to undertake this discrimination... last check in, first out; higher level frequent flyers could be immune from selection; etc. I am suggesting that as long as the criteria is clear, in the contracted terms and conditions and is not discriminating on unfair grounds, such as race, gender, sexuality, etc... then it would not be illegal.

Of course, the other solution is to stop the egregious practice of selling something you can't supply.. which in any other industry would be called fraud.

[Silent Bob]

Jim: each and everyone of us has it in us to discriminate, even when we don't realize we're doing it, so you are correct in that sense that it isn't illegal, however the airlines have no special criteria when it comes to deny boarding. For the all the years that I have flown and witnessed overbookings I've seen old, young, yes even disabled get put on that list. No one is singled out from it. There are people whom it had never happened so they take it personal and make it about themselves when in fact no one is safe from it. Until someone steps in and says "this has to stop" it will continue. I commend the government (or whomever deemed it so) for raising the amount the airlines have to give to compensate someone who yes paid for a seat, confirmed, did everything they were supposed to do, but wasn't allowed on simply because the airline sold more seats than they should. In fact I would like to see it raised even higher and maybe just maybe situations such as what the OP went through wouldn't happen or happen as often as you have to factor in the loss over making a profit.

But truthfully how can anyone be upset about being insuch a situation, especially what you can get in return. You mean i can get cash back plus keep my original flight? Yea i'll take it any day. I think the OP will in fact use this info and try to persue it, I doubt he'll succeed, but hey I agree with abutter that he should try.

[jimworcs]

How can anyone complain Bob? Well, many people are travelling for reasons which may be more important that any compensation offered. Going to a funeral for example. Impossible to plan for in advance, and if you miss the funeral, there is little point in making the journey and no amount of money can compensate. The fact that the airline is required to pay compensation is simply not good enough. Overselling should be banned.

[abutterfinger25]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

You are sure you are a frequent flyer? It is often not posted and being provided with accurate and timely information by an airline agent is like finding hen's teeth.

Jim. You are wrong. The disclosure notice is posted on every gate counter as required by 14 CFR 350.11.

If you notice a counter without the disclosure notice (or even an incorrect one), please let us know the airport, airline and gate number.

[jimworcs]

Terminal E, Boston Logan Airport. I think the gate was 08, on 21st July 2009.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

And discriminatory. Basing the criteria on inverse check-in time does not take any factors which could be deemed discriminatory into account. Suppose a business person who needs to be at a critical meeting checks in 50 minutes early while a young mother traveling with a lap child barely makes the 45 minute cutoff time. Now the flight is over-sold and they tell the businessman that even though he checked in first and got the last seat assignment because he's flying solo and there's a mother with a lap child that he'll be the one left behind. Pardon the pun but that's just not gonna fly!

Also if the airlines did as you suggest where do they draw the line? Just how elderly or frail would someone need to be so that they aren't bumped? Which disabilities determine that someone must fly when there's an over-sold situation? Using the inverse check-in time makes the decision cut and dried.

Not to mention these flights, especially an international flight, often have 100-200+ passengers on the airplane, depending on the size of the airplane. How are the agents supposed to know who is traveling alone with a child, etc., to go single them out, and tell them you are on the oversold list, but because you have a child, we are letting you on. Then what are they supposed to do? Go pull some random person off of the airplane, who checked in hours ago, and tell them, "sorry, please get off of the airplane". There usually isn't time, when boarding flights, to go through processes like that. The computer spits out a name, of a person who is on the "oversold list", meaning they checked in last, or simply did not have a seat assignment, and they are the one to be bumped. Also, keep in mind that the agents have no control over these policies, and agents cannot decide to change the policies. So arguing this with the agent will solve nothing.

I have only once had to bump someone due to an over sale, and I felt horrible. They were upset, but not rude, and we made sure they were compensated. It was a family of three, and only one was on the over sale list. Not only did they get $800 cash, but we also paid for their tickets (all three of them, not just the one that was bumped), which were over $3,000 each. They were international. It cost a total of $10,000+ to bump this person, LOL, which made me wonder why the airline overbook and risk that, but again, as an agent, I cannot control it. My point being, the airlines try to take care of people in these situations, unfortunately you do have bad apples, but don't assume all airline employees are bad. We just have our hands tied in certain situations.

[jimworcs]

If check in closes 30 minutes before the flight, then boarding has generally not commenced at this time. In general, an airline would know that a particular flight is oversold even before this time, because more people would have turned up. I have a number of times been asked to volunteer.. but I have never been asked to volunteer whilst sitting on the plane. I have only ever been asked to volunteer whilst sitting at the gate. Therefore, the scenario you paint would be extremely rare, but could be necessary. An airline knows if children under 6 are travelling, if people with a disability are travelling, etc... these are just as objective as any other criteria. What the airlines want to avoid is the effort required to take care of vulnerable passengers in this situation.

Your post generally sound like you try to do a good job for your customers, but to suggest that the US carriers in particular that

airlines try to take care of people in these situations,

is laughable and I'm afraid very naive.