[tropicalgirl]

Boo Alaska airlines- second seat policy not enforced- woman could not put down arm rest but was allowed to fly using half my husbands seat- flight totally full- He flew the 5 1/2 hours(midnight to 5 am hanging out in the galley and squeezing himself in sideways against the window just for takeoff and landing) Do not book Alaska Airlines unless you want to pay for a seat and not have it!!!!!PS-- my husband is a senior ....this was a very hard flight for him physically...

[Gromit801]

That's a tough call for every airline. IF there is a second seat available, ASA will ask a large person to buy another seat. If there ISN'T a seat available, then what? I don't believe they can legally make the larger person get off the plane. Which gives you the option to take the next flight. It's lose-lose really.

Were there empty seats? If there were, then you should file a complaint with ASA. There won't be any reimbursement, but a good way to vent. You might get miles or a voucher.

[jimworcs]

Southwest has a model policy... perhaps we should just regulate that all airlines follow that. There is no rule which would prevent the airline asking the passenger to disembark if no second seat was available, if they have in their T&C's you must be able to put the armrest down.

Incidently, they might like to look at the fact they have designed in the problem. The first commercial flight in the US was around 1914. Through the wonders of google, I happen to know that people are on average 11cm's taller (Just over 4 inches) today than they were in 1914. In terms of girth, we are massively larger than over the same period. Curiously, the size of airline seats and amount of leg room appears to be in direct, inverse proportion to the size of the passengers. This is another area in which regulation would help. If the government regulated a minimum leg room in economy (I suggest 34 inches), on all flights over 2 hours, this would stop the airlines complaining that competitive pressures force them to do this.

[Gromit801]

Jim said "regulate." *drink*

While there is no rule that prevents them from asking a large passenger to leave, there are US anti-discrimination laws that prevents them from asking. A heavy person could invoke the ADA.

[Leatherboy2006]

The sad fact is America's increasing obesity rate and illness'es that surround it.
The U.S. military said recently that childhood obesity could cause a national security issue because most of the kids could not pass the physical or PT to be in the military.
Recently had to buy some new shorts, have 31 waist and could not find anything smaller the 34's

[jimworcs]

Gromit, we have covered this previously in other threads.. an obese passenger cannot cite the ADA. First, the ADA does not apply to airlines and second, even if it did, there is no rule in the ADA which says that an obese person must be allowed to encroach onto the seat of a fellow passenger. The issue is that any special accommodation must be applied fairly and must be necessary. So, Southwest made an objective measurable ruling, which is fair and can be applied easily. Either the armrest goes down or it doesn't. There is nothing discriminatory about that.

[Gromit801]

The ADA DOES indeed apply to airlines in the US. It applies to ALL business in the US. Gawd where do you get your information. The ADA can indeed be claimed by an obese person if it can be medically shown their condition is not caused by overeating.

there is no rule in the ADA which says that an obese person must be allowed to encroach onto the seat of a fellow passenger

Who said there was such a rule? Obfuscation of the point. I said that an obese person can claim the ADA if they were asked to disembark. And depending on their actual condition, that claim can be made to stick.

[jimworcs]

The ADA DOES indeed apply to airlines in the US

Gawd where do you get your information.

My source is the DOT... what is yours?

I think you will find that the Air Carriers Access Act 1986, amended 2009 is the relevant act here. This is a link..

http://www.dotcr.ost.dot.gov/asp/airacc.asp

The ADA says absolutely nothing about obesity and whether the cause of the obesity is "overeating". You are making that up Gromit... I would like you to find any reference anywhere which distinguishes the cause of the obesity as being relevant as to whether it counts as a disability or not. There will not be one. If someone cannot walk, as a result of their obesity, then they will be considered disabled. This is because their inability to walk is a functional impairment. The cause of the functional impairment is irrelevant, both in the ADA and the ACAA. This is the same for any functional impairment.

So here is the challenge. Find any ruling, anywhere, which distinguishes how you should treat someone based on whether their impairment was caused by "overeating" or any other cause and post it on here. I will happily post a fulsome apology if it is from a reliable source.

[Leatherboy2006]

Been thinking about this for a while and having had to "share" my seat with a fat person (not only on planes but at theatre and thought close seating areas) maybe its time that we the one that had to "share" turn around and sue for our right and sue that fat person.
Besides having their mass on my seat, have had to sit by several that had offensive smells due to their size.
Just some food for thougth

[jimworcs]

I am not sure that there is a correlation between being fat and being smelly. There were many a one toothed, skinny alcoholic red neck when I lived in NC... and they smelled real bad.

I have sympathy for the position of people who are seated next to someone who simply doesn't fit the seat. However, we need to face reality. People are getting larger... in the US and in most western nations including the UK and France. We can either provide public accommodations which take into account this increase in girth and height, or we continue to put leatherboy in the position of having to share his seat. However, I do feel that if someone cannot put the armrest down, they should pay for another seat. Either that, or provide wider seats at an additional cost.

[camarors]

Never mind. Realized I have to post somewhere else. Sorry.

[jimworcs]

Gromit..

Any chance of an apology? Admission you are wrong?

You have gone very quiet.... funny that...

[JMOThanks]

I am a big woman and I will be honest with you. When I was a smaller woman I still felt crapped in coach.
Now yeah I would buy two seats or go first class. I agree that if you are big get 2 seats.
But, I think airlines need to make bigger seats for EVERYONE.. Come on pushing people together like sardines is not a fun way to travel. Just saying!!

[Gromit801]

Again Jim, you are skewing my point in an attempt to make yours. Epic fail.

As a matter of fact, thanks for making my point for me.

[jimworcs]

I am skewing which point Gromit, the one where you said that the ADA was the relevant act? In that case, I provided a source and a link.... but I accept your apology... thank you for being so gracious.

In skewing your other point, is this the one where you said..

The ADA can indeed be claimed by an obese person if it can be medically shown their condition is not caused by overeating.

I said...

The ADA says absolutely nothing about obesity and whether the cause of the obesity is "overeating". You are making that up Gromit...

Do you want to try and cite any source, anywhere, where any act or regulation requires an obese person to show medically their condition is not caused by overeating? I'll up the ante if you like.. if you find any reference from a verifiable source, I will donate $25 to charity.

[justme]

CRAZY idea!!! Maybe instead of airlines (or theaters, or trains, or buses, etc) making their seats bigger and bigger to accommodate the fat ***** that are humans, we should take a long hard look at our diet and exercise habits and STOP being fat and unhealthy. I don't feel bad for you if you can't fit in an airline seat... lose some weight and you will. And for those who are going to say, "what about people that have medical conditions that cause them to be overweight?" I say, go to a doctor and get it fixed, pretty simple.

[justme]

... an obese passenger cannot cite the ADA. First, the ADA does not apply to airlines and second, even if it did, there is no rule in the ADA which says that an obese person must be allowed to encroach onto the seat of a fellow passenger.

Gromit and Jim... I found relevant info straight from the US Dept of Justice. (It's near the bottom of the page if you want to read it yourself) The ADA in fact does NOT cover passengers traveling on airlines, but it DOES cover employees/applicants. From their site it says...

3. Q: Does the ADA prohibit discrimination by airlines?

A: Discrimination by air carriers in areas other than
employment is not covered by the ADA, but rather, by the Air
Carrier Access Act (ACAA). Persons who believe that they have
been discriminated against by airlines because of their
HIV-positive status should contact the U.S. Department of
Transportation.

**Bold mine for emphasis**

You can also find more info about flying with disabilities here.

[jimworcs]

Thank you Justme... I stated an obese passenger cannot cite the ADA, but rather the ACAA... and Justme provides independent backup... ball's in your court Gromit... lets hear it!


Justme... you conveniently ignored the fact that people are not just getting fatter so their "fat *****" don't fit the seat..but also significantly taller.. do you think we should have more leg room, or ask people to have their legs shortened surgically?

[JMOThanks]

Originally Posted by justme

CRAZY idea!!! Maybe instead of airlines (or theaters, or trains, or buses, etc) making their seats bigger and bigger to accommodate the fat ***** that are humans, we should take a long hard look at our diet and exercise habits and STOP being fat and unhealthy. I don't feel bad for you if you can't fit in an airline seat... lose some weight and you will. And for those who are going to say, "what about people that have medical conditions that cause them to be overweight?" I say, go to a doctor and get it fixed, pretty simple.

The seats are NOT only small for FAT people but, anyone who is over then 100 pounds and no one over 5'0 tall. My husband was in the Navy (can't be fat) and he is 5'11 and he had to sit with his legs apart to have knee room and his legs were in the way of other passengers.
Clearly you are just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing.

[justme]

Justme... you conveniently ignored the fact that people are not just getting fatter so their "fat *****" don't fit the seat..but also significantly taller.. do you think we should have more leg room, or ask people to have their legs shortened surgically?

Making the rows a few inches further apart to accommodate evolution is a-ok by me... I myself definitely feel the squeeze when I sit in coach. (Which admittedly isn't very often.) Making them wider to accommodate human gluttony, greed, and sloth is not.

Clearly you are just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing.

Sounds like something my mom used to always say to me when I was growing up, guess I should've been a lawyer.

but, anyone who is over then 100 pounds and no one over 5'0 tall. My husband was in the Navy (can't be fat) and he is 5'11 and he had to sit with his legs apart to have knee room and his legs were in the way of other passengers.

I am 6'1" and 175lbs. I fit just fine in every coach seat I have ever been in. (Minus a few inches of feet room... read above) To say that someone who is 5' and 100lbs can't fit is ludicrous and clearly shows that it is YOU who is arguing for the hell of it. Not saying you're lying about your husband's weight, but I have seen more than my fare shake of grossly overweight people in every branch of the military. As long as you get fat AFTER you're in, I've never known them to say much. The fact that your husband has to sit with his legs apart to be comfortable is solely because he is a man, nuff said.

[JMOThanks]

Originally Posted by justme

I am 6'1" and 175lbs. I fit just fine in every coach seat I have ever been in. (Minus a few inches of feet room... read above) To say that someone who is 5' and 100lbs can't fit is ludicrous and clearly shows that it is YOU who is arguing for the hell of it. Not saying you're lying about your husband's weight, but I have seen more than my fare shake of grossly overweight people in every branch of the military. As long as you get fat AFTER you're in, I've never known them to say much. The fact that your husband has to sit with his legs apart to be comfortable is solely because he is a man, nuff said.

My husband is a fit 170 pounds

I have traveled Delta (which is worst then Southwest)...sat by a taller guy and his legs were in MY way. I don't believe AIRLINES should fit human beings on a plane like Sardines for the sake of a dollar...Like I stated before...if there were more ways to travel quickly in the U.S...Airlines would have to make their passengers HAPPY.

You work for a airline so you will think it is the best thing around. I do admire you dedication...but, I am right in saying alot of folks would agree with me about the seats.

At one time...Air was a nice way to travel...NOT ANY MORE!!!

[justme]

At one time...Air was a nice way to travel...NOT ANY MORE!!!

100% correct. But what you fail to mention along with that, is that when air travel was "nice" it was also very expensive, exclusive, and mostly only used for the upper class. The degradation of the airline industry rests solely on the shoulders of the masses screaming for cheaper and cheaper fares. As my dad used to always say, "You get what you pay for." You want to pay $259 for a ticket from EU to US? Good, glad you found a good deal, but don't in any way, shape, or form expect more than $259 worth of service. Want GREAT service? Pay $1500 for the same trip, or $10,000 if you want to sit in business.

[jimworcs]

US airlines where they fly head to head with foreign airlines are often not cheaper than the alternative and their service standards are significantly worse. You can fly Singapore Airlines for similar prices to US based airlines and you will have a dramatically better experience. It is not just price it is ATTITUDE.

[JMOThanks]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

US airlines where they fly head to head with foreign airlines are often not cheaper than the alternative and their service standards are significantly worse. You can fly Singapore Airlines for similar prices to US based airlines and you will have a dramatically better experience. It is not just price it is ATTITUDE.

I am trying to say that...with all the charges for extra legroom, food, charging for advance seating...ummmm let's see here anything I miss airlines aren't charging people for?

Luggage...With all the extra charges that weren't charged before, HOW ARE WE SAVING!!!??

[JMOThanks]

Originally Posted by justme

100% correct. But what you fail to mention along with that, is that when air travel was "nice" it was also very expensive, exclusive, and mostly only used for the upper class. The degradation of the airline industry rests solely on the shoulders of the masses screaming for cheaper and cheaper fares. As my dad used to always say, "You get what you pay for." You want to pay $259 for a ticket from EU to US? Good, glad you found a good deal, but don't in any way, shape, or form expect more than $259 worth of service. Want GREAT service? Pay $1500 for the same trip, or $10,000 if you want to sit in business.

Ummm...I remember at one time paying for 199 dollars for a round trip from VA to CA on USAir (when it was called that). I got food, leg room, and free headphones for movies.

You can get on Amtrak...Get a private room and pay 1000 dollars (a family)...get free food water, no charge for luggage, free meals, and your own shower.
When I vacation I vacation....so what if I am on their for 3 days.

Can you imagine if Amtrak would go high speed...Not only greener but, more enjoyable?

I do wish we had trains like Europe.

I guess you don't want to hear that Justme because, you maybe out of a job.