[The_Judge]

A couple days after the event and not a word about this on this board? I know it's the holidays and all but I figured someone would mention a terror attack on the world's largest airline.

Anyway, here is a brief knee-jerk reaction by the government. If the portion about not being able to do anything 1 hour prior to landing is true, this is scary for the other types of regulations that may come about. For those that want re-regulation, if these are the types of people that are making these decisions and they keep it up, I say, re-regulation will kill the airline industry.

Here is just a snip of part of the story. Complete article can be read at the link provided.

Air Canada said in a statement that new rules imposed by the Transportation Security Administration limit on-board activities by passengers and crew in U.S. airspace. The airline said that during the final hour of flight passengers must remain seated. They won't be allowed access to carryon baggage or to have any items on their laps.

Can you imagine if the flight is delayed in landing after the announcement, or someone has to use the restroom, or needs medication or etc, etc.....If this is true, I foresee MASSIVE problems on board airliners in the U.S.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_airlin...ck_regulations

[Gromit801]

Just a guess here, that the crew will announce that those who need to do whatever, should do so with the next 30 minutes before the "stay seated" hour takes affect.

[The_Judge]

As I said in my post...."after the announcement". My guess is you've never worked in an airport. People do NOT listen to announcements and moreso, think the rules apply to everyone but them. I reiterate.......this will backfire tremendously and create many more problems than it solves.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

To address Judge's concern about customers not listening to the announcement perhaps "Helen," the orange juice lady, should be "deployed" on some flights.

http://cbs13.com/local/orange.juice....2.1369891.html

Seriously, I wonder if there were problems with getting customers to comply with the "remain seated" instruction when such a rule was in effect on flights to/from DCA?

If Judge is right this rule might provide an unexpected revenue stream for Amtrak!!

[The_Judge]

I did hear of isolated problems with the DC flights but only just a few. I have not seen this on the TSA website yet and have not investigated alot but if this is all international arrivals or more, all flights within the U.S., this will change flying drastically. No carryons to be used within the last hour of flight PLUS only 1 carryon now??? Doing away with the 1+?? This will be interesting as it unfolds. I suspect a drawback if this is actually something that was issued to the airlines. The public won't stand for this as they have to stand up to get their un-needed articles from their carryons.

[jimworcs]

Troy,.
This has nothing whatsoever with the regulation of the industry.

The TSA and DHS are a security industry which has as it's primary motivation the creation of sufficient fear in the general public to justify it's continued existance and the expenditure of huge sums of public money. It has very little to do with security and safety of the general public.

In this case, had existing security measures worked it would never have happened. This guy was on the "no fly" lists, and the whole point of ESTA was to prevent people like this being boarded. Millions of people are submitting their details to the US under ESTA.. if it doesn't work, why do it?

This guy was also banned from the UK, so already known to the authorities and action was being taken to restrict his movements. If the authorities can't communicate with each other.. what is the point of them?

The TSA is going to ban the airline from advising passengers when they are in US airspace. To do this, won't they also have to ban watches (so customers can't tell the time), the onboard map showing the aircraft location, and ban passengers from looking out of the window? The TSA is staffed by stupid people who are always one step behind, fighting the last war... it has nothing whatsover to do with safety.

Next time you pass through an airport, talk to one of the TSA staff... and then ask yourself if you feel safe in their hands.

[The_Judge]

No need.... worked hand in hand with them from their inception after 9/11. I know their mentality and the types of people they mostly seem to be.

Jim.....my point about re-regulation didn't come across the way I wanted it. I wanted to convey that if this same mentality is used by those that will regulate it, airlines are in big trouble.

Sorry for my lack of being able to express myself well today.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Jimworcs wrote...

This guy was on the "no fly" list

According to a few media reports he was NOT on a "no fly" list. He IS, however, on an FBI terrorist watch list. Accordingly the US Embassy in Lagos screwed-up in granting him a visa.

[jimworcs]

Butch,
Thanks for the clarification, but in many ways that is worse. There are many perfectly innocent people who have found their way onto the "no fly" list for the most nebulous reasons.. including having a name that "sounds like" someone elses. To find that meanwhile, there are people who are on the FBI's terrorist watch list, who are not on the "no fly" list tells you all you need to know.

It either means that the necessary communications between security agencies is pisspoor.. or more likely, the FBI, in common with most people, recognises the DHS/TSA for what it is. A bunch of mickeymouse "security" operatives with little more than a high school diploma who can't be trusted with the most basic intelligence.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

According to Sunday's (Dec. 27th) tv news "interview" programs the list this guy was on numbers in excess of a half million. The "no fly" list is around 18,000 (if I recall the number correctly.) As a result of the improper listings on the "no fly" list there has, lately, been a higher level of "derogatory information" required for placement on the latter list. Evidently it was only because of a visit, from this guy's father, to the US Embassy in Lagos that this guy even got onto the larger terrorist watch list. As we all know, if I type a name into a computer, a match can be done against a half million names in less than 30 seconds. Obviously someone at the US Embassy in Lagos couldn't be bothered doing that simple task.

I fear the only outcome of this incident will be even more pointless "security theatre" at the airports and on the plane.

The following are video links to NBC's "Meet The Press" interview with the Secretary of Homeland Security:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/ns/meet_the_press

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

The following link is a recording of a cockpit announcement on a JetBlue flight from San Juan to JFK.

http://www.nypost.com/video?vxSiteId...&vxBitrate=700

In announcing that nothing is allowed on your laps the Captain includes "reading materials."

With respect to flights entirely within the "lower 48," rules like this may make some people think long and hard about boarding any flight expected to last longer than 2 hours.

[jimworcs]

Not being able to read a book does nothing to make the flight safer...but it does give the appearance that the DHS/TSA are doing something...and for that millions of people can be inconvenienced.

[The_Judge]

Well, the new rules lasted about a day or so. As I stated, a knee-jerk reaction that only resulted in screwing the passengers who flew in the last 24 hours or so. According to the article I read, captain's descretion now will prevail in whether or not passengers can behave as before, i.e., move about the cabin within the last hour of flight, have pillows/blankets during same time, etc. If they get a grumpy captain that wont allow it, people will complain. I can't see this as a good policy either. The TSA really need someone in charge who can make an informed, educated decision and create policy that will be safe for all and have commen sense. I see things haven't changed since I've left.

Here is a small snip of the article I linked.

"You are now free to move about the cabin. Or not. After a two-day security clampdown prompted by a thwarted attempt to bomb a jetliner, some airline officials told The Associated Press that the in-flight restrictions had been eased. And it was now up to captains on each flight to decide whether passengers can have blankets and other items on their laps or can move around during the final phase of flight.

Confused? So were scores of passengers who flew Monday on one of the busiest travel days of the year. On some flights, passengers were told to keep their hands visible and not to listen to iPods. Even babies were frisked. But on other planes, security appeared no tighter than usual.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091229/...nger_confusion

[jimworcs]

The TSA are ludicrous... as are the muppets who run security at British airports... they lack intelligence and are utterly incompetent. In the UK pilots are subjected to ridiculous petty "security" procedures which make no sense whatsoever. For example, a pilot I know had his nail clippers and a sandwich confiscated. (The sandwich was deemed to not be "dry" enough). When challenged the moron at security said that it was possible he could use the clippers as a weapon and dangerous chemicals could be hidden in the sandwich. When it was pointed out to him that he was about to take charge of a huge, fully fueled missile with over 200 people on it with an axe in the cockpit.. he simply shrugged. Rules is rules.

This is about money and power. It has become an industry in its own right and the rules created are in part self interest. It is stupid to waste time screening the captain and first officer of an airplane, when they are about to be put in charge of the plane. Some things are out of our control. Pilots have the power to kill all their passengers and screening will do nothing to help. (Google Silkair and Egyptair crashes if you need proof).

Likewise, universal screening measures which target everyone means that vast sums of money and effort are being spent pointlessly. We need to adopt a profiling approach similar to that adopted by El Al. If the TSA was profiling and targeting higher risk passengers, Abdulmutallab would almost certainly have been reviewed. He was banned from the UK, his father had reported his radicalisation to security authorities in Nigeria and the US Embassy and he had previously travelled to Yemen, which is a hotspot for radicalisation and terrorist activity. Of course, the calibre of security staff is somewhat different too. The TSA might be forced to start recruiting from a wider pool of people than ex employees of TacoBell.

The pointless fake security measures being taken are little more than show business.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Jimworcs wrote...

We need to adopt a profiling approach similar to that adopted by El Al.

One argument against using this model is that it would create too many delays. I don't see how much further, on the "delay scale," we can can go from where we are now. People are being told to arrive at the airport 3 hours prior to departure. I believe that's the time frame quoted for Tel Aviv (TLV).

Finally, I wonder how many people, under the age of 4, get an extensive search prior to boarding at TLV?

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

The TSA are ludicrous...

You can say that again. (and again, and again...)

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Likewise, universal screening measures which target everyone means that vast sums of money and effort are being spent pointlessly. We need to adopt a profiling approach similar to that adopted by El Al.

Oh God (or Allah, or The Force, or whatever or whoever it is you worship) forbid we treat anybody any differently than anyone else lest we be deemed an unfair society that practices racial and religious discrimination.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

The pointless fake security measures being taken are little more than show business.

Hopefully when President Obama frees up some time in his schedule when the whole healthcare thing is put to bed he'll work on cleaning house in the DHS and TSA and get some people in there who will actually work on making the system more secure and not just play these games of what more they can do to give people the illusion of safety. They've been hand searching more carry-ons and performing more pat-downs and yet the majority of the cargo that flies just inches beneath our feet is still not searched at all or to the extent that a frail old grandmother in a wheelchair is.

[jimworcs]

Exactly, but there is something more frightening that the security threat...

Phx, Butch and me appear to be agreeing on something....

WTF?

Bob will agree next.. .and then where will we be?

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Troy,.
The TSA and DHS are a security industry which has as it's primary motivation the creation of sufficient fear in the general public to justify it's continued existance and the expenditure of huge sums of public money. It has very little to do with security and safety of the general public.

In this case, had existing security measures worked it would never have happened. This guy was on the "no fly" lists, and the whole point of ESTA was to prevent people like this being boarded. Millions of people are submitting their details to the US under ESTA.. if it doesn't work, why do it?

While I'm not at all a fan of the TSA, in all fairness, the TSA and DHS had nothing to do with this guy getting on the plane. Even if they had info about whether or not he should be allowed to board the flights, it was Nigerian and Dutch security the dropped the ball.

I don't know anything about Nigerian airport security. But I have flown through Amsterdam. For those not familiar the airport is kind of divided into two sections. One part is for flights to other EU countries. It's the typical one checkpoint for all gates deal. (Actually there are a couple checkpoints depending on where you enter from, but read on to see what's different)

In the rest of the airport which handles non-EU flights each gate has it's own checkpoint. Just before entering the metal detector there are two passport checkers, each with a computer and they question passengers as the enter. I would think this should be where watch list comparing take place???? Regardless, he slipped by.

[jimworcs]

Security and intelligence lapses allowed a suspected terrorist to board a U.S.-bound airliner on Christmas Day, President Obama said from Hawaii today, interrupting his vacation to speak about the failed bombing attempt."A systemic failure has occurred, and I consider that totally unacceptable," Obama said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-a...,4242709.story

Nigeria's civil aviation authority said last night that he bought his round-trip ticket from Lagos to Detroit via Amsterdam at a KLM office in Ghana's capital, Accra, on 16 December, with a planned return of 8 January. He paid the £1,775 fare in cash. Before the flight departed on Thursday, he checked in as normal, taking only a carry-on bag.
Security at Lagos had been found adequate by US authorities. Under EU rules, Abdulmutallab would have been checked again as a transfer passenger at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport. Dutch officials say these checks took place and were "well performed".
Aviation security experts said that scanners designed to pick up explosives rather than metal exist, but are not in widespread use

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...omber-al-qaida

We are probably going to have to accept the use of "body scanners" despite people's privacy concerns. However, the failure in this case is principally one of intelligence handling and little to do with the security at Lagos or Schipol.

[Jetliner]

Probably true. I can fully understand the privacy issues, but on the other hand, there aren't exactly a lot of other good options out there for this type of thing. Unfortunately, this is also a case of what they are trying to do these days, and that is bring the chemical components through and mix them later. It makes it much harder to detect.

I think the body scanners are going to be quite common, and I think people need to accept that fact. Again, I understand the privacy concerns, but at the same time, what else do these people have in mind. And that's the real problem in the US. People aren't dealing with reality in all of this. Just like any airline employee I used to get the famous question "Do I look like a terrorist to you?" And my response - "Did Timothy McVegh?" I've driven around Europe, and that includes crossing the French/German boarder. Back in WW2, I could have told you that was line between enemy and friend. That is not the case these days. These guys live right among the rest of us. But so many of the American public can't accept that fact.

On the other hand, I don't think the TSA is exactly doing a great job either. The problem there is they are so full of bureaucracy it isn't funny.