[jimworcs]

Hope all goes well with the Manager...maybe face to face people are able to show a bit more compassion. One big lesson though is avoid US based airlines for international travel in future...especially the worst of the lot.. DELTA. They really are very very arrogant and anti-consumer. They recently went into bankruptcy, ripped off their suppliers and staff, and were rewarded by being given anti-trust immunity to take over NorthWest airlines becoming the largest airline in the world. If that isn't screwed up, I don't know what is.

[chrisal]

Jimworks thanks for the encouragement! I don't suppose you would know how I might be able to get in touch with the american airline regulator or ombudsmen regarding the lies and lack of customer care that Delta have thrown at me? What would be the best way to go about it?
I actually had a woman call me today from Delta which I couldn't believe. However, it was a complete waste of time and although the call lasted for over an hour she refused to put herself in my position and accepted no part of the blame for what has happened. She even went so far as to say that even though Delta had told my girlfriend that she didn't need a visa to travel, it still wasn't their fault as it is not their job to tell people what they need to travel. I asked her why they didn't just tell my girlfriend that it isn't their job to tell her, instead of lying to her, and she just continued to repeat some legal nonsense.
The conversation went nowhere and left me without any doubt at all that Delta are the sickest, most arrogant, lying, cheating, thieving, double standard company that I have ever had the misfortune to get involved with. And what makes it all the worse is that I still have to fly home with them, when I decide that there isn't anything more I can do from here.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

With regard to international travel: I would always rely in information supplied by the embassies/consulates of the countries in question. As to information provided by an airline: I would follow that ONLY if the airline appears to be under the impression that ADDITIONAL documents are required. For example, the embassy of country X says I only need a valid US passport, but Delta says I need a US passport AND a birth certificate, I would also bring the birth certificate knowing that there is no way I would ever win an argument, as to entry requirements, with Delta, or any other airline.

To second Jim's thoughts: If I lived in Buenos Aires, I'd take my chances with Aerolineas Argentinas, or LAN Chile, even if it meant I had to stay overnight, at my expense, en route, in Miami. Delta probably has made some nasty comments about you on their records by now. So, if you try to fly them again, you'll be walking into a hornet's nest.

[mars6423]

i am still a little worried about how he made a comment that wasnt exactly harmful, just hinting that you should take some of the blaim since it is your responsibility for your own paperwork, and than you retaliate saying that you want to stab him in the neck and just some unexplainable comments that had nothing to do with anything

and if you read any of the other posts i commented on in this thread you would have realized that i was on your side

[jimworcs]

Chris,
Here is how to complaint to the DOT

Complaints about airline service other than safety or security issues may be registered with DOT's Aviation Consumer Protection Division (ACPD). You can call, write or use the web form.

Call the ACPD 24 hours a day at 202-366-2220 Calls are returned Monday through Friday, generally between 7:30 am and 5:00 pm Eastern time.


Write to:

Aviation Consumer Protection Division, C-75
U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Ave, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20590

You can send a complaint, comment or inquiry electronically by using the web form.

http://airconsumer.dot.gov/escomplaint/es.cfm


Whether you call, write or use the web form, be brief and concise in the description of your problem and be sure to include the following information:

your name

address

daytime phone number (including area code) and e-mail address

name of the airline or company about which you are complaining

flight date

flight number if known

origin and destination cities of your trip.

If you send a letter, you should also include a copy (not the original) of your airline ticket or itinerary sheet and any correspondence you have already exchanged with the company.

You should also consider asking Delta for a copy of the telephone call. Many calls are recorded and you may have the right to a copy. If you can obtain this, and can prove you were mislead, I think you may have a reasonable chance of winning in small claims, if you have such a thing in Argentina. You may also ask the DOT if they are able to obtain a copy.

Delta will defend this vigorously though. If airlines had to stand behind the lies their staff tell customers they would go bankrupt. (Oh I forgot, Delta did go bankrupt, but somehow in the US, that's no deterrent!!)

[chrisal]

Mars please note that I have no problem with you and fully realise that you were on my side. My problem is with PHX and for the way he antagonized me. If you read what he said about "looking in the mirror and getting on with my life" this was not meant to be helpful constructive advise, but was only written to make me look stupid and make my blood boil. Why do you think he got 2 strikes for it? And he has apparently been warned for this type of thing in the past and even served a ban before. He's a nasty piece of work who I'm sure finds my predicament quite funny and that's why he wrote what he wrote. And for me to read these words after coming on this site for help after receiving so much rubbish from Delta, well! I thought I'd be receiving help, not getting laughed at and ridiculed. So to get this was just a little too much.
So just to repeat, I have no arguement with you.

Butch C, I have a ticket with Delta that I still have to use, although the thought of flying with them makes me fell sick inside! What do you mean about "if I fly with Delta again, it will be like flying into a hornet's nest?" They can't stop me from flying home with them! And my girlfriend is going to have to use them when she finally gets a visa in mid-Jan. If she doesn't we will lose the tickets.
The sorry thing about this situation is that I only bought her a ticket with Delta because it was to be her first time flying and she was too scared to fly alone. I already had a one year return ticket that I unfortunately bought with Delta a year ago so the only way my girlfriend could fly with me was if she also flew with Delta. I wanted her to fly with someone else (Tam) as they were much cheaper but she was scared to fly alone. So we bought her ticket, but now, ironically, she will not only be flying alone (as I cannot wait til mid Jan to go home) but she will have to go throught the fascist interview with the US Embassy and have to pay 131 pesos for the priviledge. Paying this money will in turn allow her the priviledge of sitting in Atlanta airport for several hours so it is money well spent! No, if Delta had of told her to find the info out for herself when she asked what she would need for the trip, istead of lying to her, none of this would have happened and she would have chosen an airline that did not stop in the States, thus ruling out the visa necesity.

Jim thanks for the info, much appreciated. I've already asked them a couple of times for a copy of the tape but they refuse to be of any help whatsoever. Delta have been the most unhelpful group of lying individuals that I have ever come across so this doesn't really surprise me. Anyway I'll get this complaint sent off! Cheers! And how is the weather in England? I'll probably be back home next week, unlike my girlfriend who will have to wait until mid-jan for her visa.

[mars6423]

i dont know if this will help, but maybe if you call the US embassy and ask if they could fast track the visa request, it is worth a try.........i know that it wont help with the delta problem but it would allow you to get her over sooner if it goes through (and its christmas season they may feel oh its a present, its the season of giving and may process the visa quickly as its a transit visa)

anyways back to the lack of decentcy and utter lost of common sense and customer service of delta.......maybe if you go to a media outlet and tell them that you asked delta what documents were needed and they provided the wrong/no info and didnt assist you until it was too late and wouldn't allow your gf to fly and that it has caused alot of pain and aggrivation and that you feel that they have ripped you off and are taking advantage of the situation....and that it must happen alot more frequently than people believe and that people have the right to know and a light needs to be shed on this matter (so if it doesnt help you than it may help others in the situation.......also it brings bad publicity to delta who than may accept the ticket and put your gf on a flight) not saying it will work but its a way

either way i wish you the best of luck and that you get to see and be with your gf asap and that delta shows some compassion

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Chrisal wrote...

What do you mean about "if I fly with Delta again, it will be like flying into a hornet's nest?"

Because of your complaints Delta may have, unjustly, noted on your reservation record that you are a "trouble maker." Since travel on a South American airline is not an option be very carefull of what you say and do in the presence of Delta airport staff and flight attendants, or during any phone conversations with Delta. Bring a notepad with you so you can note any relevant comments, and your response to them. Include names (when available), times and dates. Make notes of any phone conversations you have (or have had) with Delta. Don't turn-over any notes to Delta staff unless you have copies.

[chrisal]

Thanks for the advise Mars! I have already tried to ask the embassy to bring forward my girlfriend's visa interview date but they, like Delta did not want to help and said that they couldn't (or wouldn't) help. Also, as far as getting in touch with the media, I've just sent an email off to all the UK newspapers. Next I'm going to hunt out all US newspapers addresses and Argie ones too. Hopefully there is someone who wants to bring down these lying scumbags a peg or two!
My girlfriend's mother told me a story before about the brother of a friend of hers from Argentina who was supposed to be going to Ireland. However, when he arrived at the US he was detained for 2 days for flying into the country without the relevant transit visa. Eventually he was allowed to fly home to Argentina when a translator was found and he was fully interviewed nazi style. He was asked why he was travelling and who was he going to see and if he could prove if he had any money. The poor soul has never had the courage to leave his country since. Thanks US Customs!
I hate to think about my girlfriend if she had actually been allowed to fly and then held in the US like a terrorist before finally being shipped back home whilst I had to continue to Manchester and then Newcastle where I'm from. This type of thing obviously happens all the time, as normal people who have never travelled in their life just don't know info like; it is necessary to have a transit visa to transit in the US. However, his case is a bit different to ours as my girlfriend proactively asked Delta what she needed to travel and they told her lies. This is the problem. But we'll see what the press and the American aviation regulators make of it all now.

Thanks Butch I'll heed the warning! Nothing about Delta would surprise me now. I'll be careful with them.

[mars6423]

i just thought of a scenerio where alot of problems could occur.......a death in the family, one who lives overseas, how would you be able to get over there since there would be no way to get the visa in such a short amount of time, and you dont have the money to pay for a more expensive flight?

and to the scenerio you told about your gf's mothers brothers friend (if i got that right) language barriers do not help at all and even though they say fair and equal treatment, you really never can tell unless they speak the same language or you understand english, they could have easily taken advantage of him, and they could see that he attempted to get a visa but unfortunatly it was the wrong one, so they should have let him continue his flight and just warn him that next time he needs to get the correct visa (as it may have been the embassys fault for issueing the wrong visa) and it can be hard to know exactly what the visa's say when you do not understand the language

also there is another website, flyertalk.com , which is a website that informs people about flying and issues, so i believe that you should warn others if you want/have time

another thing that may help you is if you write to the congressman/official in the country of origin (argentina) and explain the situation and see what they could do about it

i think we should all start an online petition to get airlines to have a page before purchasing that shows what documents may be needed through and to the final destinations (visa's, and any other documents, so that you can see if there are anything that you have to do........the airlines would than be happy than coz they wouldnt get frustrated customers at their feet, and than they could say that they saw the page with the requirements its the cust. responsibilit they saw it clear)

so my other suggestion is write to an official in argentina and maybe one in the US and explain that things need to be stated clearly and how it has effected you and cost money that you do not have (they cant see your finances so they cant say that you can or cant afford it) and ask them to see if delta will reimburse you or honor the ticket

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by mars6423

i think we should all start an online petition to get airlines to have a page before purchasing that shows what documents may be needed through and to the final destinations (visa's, and any other documents, so that you can see if there are anything that you have to do........the airlines would than be happy than coz they wouldnt get frustrated customers at their feet, and than they could say that they saw the page with the requirements its the cust. responsibilit they saw it clear)

I just did a test booking on Delta.com to travel from EZE (Buenos Aires) to MAN (Manchester, UK). After selecting the flights and at the bottom of the page where one is given the fare breakdown and the option to "Review and Purchase" the following appears:

New passport and visa requirements may exist for your itinerary.

When one clicks on the link provided, the following information is given:

Visa & Passport Information

Visa rules can be pretty tricky. What's more, they can change. Use this tool to find out which travel documents you'll need to enter the countries you're visiting, or to get back into the country where you started.


Visa Waiver Program


Advisory: Traveling to the United States? Effective January 12, 2009 the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) requires travelers to submit an online request for travel authorization via the Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) prior to boarding a carrier to travel by air or sea to the United States.
This is being done to allow visitors from participating countries to get speedy approval for travel to the U. S. for business or pleasure for 90 days or less without first obtaining a visa. For more information you can visit the VWP website or download a fact sheet about the program.

Aftyer this information is displayed there is an area where one can fill in their nationality, what country they are originating in, their destination, etc. which links to IATA'a TimaticWeb application which will tell you exactly what is required in the way of passports, visas, etc.

[PHXFlyer]

And just to add to the above...

There was another whiner on this forum who claimed he had no idea a visa would be required for a US citizen to enter Australia. If you scroll down furhter on the page mentioned above you'll see this:

Traveling to Australia

All visitors to Australia need a tourist visa. American and Canadian passport holders can apply online for an Electronic Travel Authority (ETA) visa.

So do you see that all you imbeciles who think you can just go jetting off anywhere you goddam please without checking entry and transit requirements. Even the friendly nation of Australia requires a visa from ALL VISITORS. So now don't go crying the blues when you're turned away at the airport for not having the proper visa to travel.

[mars6423]

with australia you can get it same day or within 24hours, and you can do it online and get accepted on the spot

[jimworcs]

The situations are not exactly analogous Phx. The US citizen who was going to Australia and didn't know they needed a visa was entering the country. A US citizen who is transiting through Australia, provided they are remaining within the airport terminal and staying less than 8 hours would not require a Visa.

Chrisal's girlfriend was not intending to visit the USA, she was simply intending to change planes there.

Chrisal,
Sorry you won't get to spend Christmas with your gf in Geordieland. The weather is pretty good actually, cold but clear blue skies and no rain!! I was in Newcastle on Thursday... so mild, no-one was wearing a coat!

[mars6423]

yeah i heard the weather in england was pretty good, my parents arrived there this morning from singapore and said it was pretty cold at first (considering they got off at 5 or 6 in the morning and coming from hot singapore they would feel cold) to see my dads twin and family before coming to the US for xmas and new years

visas are a pain, if they are transit visas than it should be a quick electronic visa that can be printed at home, it shouldnt take weeks, as your not staying or moving there, however i do not see the use of transit visas if your staying in the airport

[mars6423]

also, i think it is a crime that you have to pay (131 pesos) to make an interview with the embassy and that they wont help you/your gf and that you have to wait a while for that interview (a few weeks/month) is not a acceptable time in my books, many people wont know if they are going to be traveling through the US with that amount of time to wait (ex. small business where there is a convention/meeting in europe where the cheapest flight was through the US so they save money, and the conference is in 2 weeks, there is no chance that they would be able to get the visa in time, making the airline profitable with no passenger on that flight, an extra income, its feeding the fat cats since you have to pay the embassy and the airline money and cant get on that flight

131pesos is about US$35 (34.48) so thats not pocket change, so they should be more helpful, they should understand the situation.......ask them to see if there is a cancelation in an appointment if they could see and interview your gf (still dont see why she would need to be interviewed for transit but policy is policy and i cant argue that) or ask if she can go on her free time and if there is a space available to do the interview than, or if it is only allowable to be present at the scheduled time of interview

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

PHXFlyer wrote...

There was another whiner on this forum...

Even if a given OP has an IQ of 5, is it appropriate to dismiss them as a "whiner?"

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

PHXFlyer wrote...

There was another whiner on this forum...

Even if a given OP has an IQ of 5, is it appropriate to dismiss them as a "whiner?"

If they "complain" about not having proper documents to either enter or transit a country then yes, they are "whiners." Especially in an online forum since all of the information necessary is available online. That makes them both imbeciles and whiners.

[Silent Bob]

also, i think it is a crime that you have to pay (131 pesos) to make an interview with the embassy and that they wont help you/your gf and that you have to wait a while for that interview (a few weeks/month) is not a acceptable time in my books, many people wont know if they are going to be traveling through the US with that amount of time to wait

You may find it unacceptable, but you also have to factor in just how many people are actually trying to get the very same Visa. I'm sure there's a way to get it sooner, but it will cost more money. I have a friend who has a girlfriend in the philippines and before she can get a visas to travel to the US, there's this whole process of interviews, forms to fill out, and yes the exchange of money in time, she'll be here in about hmmmmm another year and a half.

But i agree with phx, the fault lies with the OP. You can't trust the airlines for info unless it pertains to their flight... and even then you have to be just a bit wary.

[jimworcs]

If you bought a TV from BestBuy and you asked them if it was compatible with digital transmission, and BestBuy said Yes and you subsequently found out it was not, would you feel you had a grievance against BestBuy?

Why should airlines be any different to this? They have a simple remedy. If they do not want to give advice on visa's then don't give it. However, if they do give the passenger advice on visa's then they should be held responsible for misleading the customer.

The mantra that it is the passengers fault is ridiculous. The passenger asked the airline for advice. The airline had a choice. Give the advice or not. They made the wrong choice and now they should be responsible for that choice. They also had the option of telling the passenger that the information can be found on their website.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

If you bought a TV from BestBuy and you asked them if it was compatible with digital transmission, and BestBuy said Yes and you subsequently found out it was not, would you feel you had a grievance against BestBuy?

But I can read the tag on the display model and determine if it is compatible or not. I can also look up the specs for the model online to determine the same thing. Would I trust a 20-something sales rep. at Best Buy to know everything about every item they sell? Of course not. Should you rely on an airline call center employee (who probably isn't an employee of the airline but works for a contracted company) for accurate information on immigration and transit policies. Absolutely not. There are too many nuances when it comes to such matters. One could merely be a resident alien of the country of departure and if that isn't disclosed to the airline phone agent then it throws the whole equation off.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

The mantra that it is the passengers fault is ridiculous. The passenger asked the airline for advice. The airline had a choice. Give the advice or not. They made the wrong choice and now they should be responsible for that choice. They also had the option of telling the passenger that the information can be found on their website.

There you have it. They asked for advice. They should have taken that advice and researched it through official government channels to confirm the advice they received was good or not. It's unfortunate that the OP relied solely on what a call center agent who probably never travels and makes less than minimum wage told him but he chose to go on that information only and now finds himself in this situation. We've all made similar mistakes before. "If only i had made a phone call..." or "if only I had received confirmation.." Life is full of "if onlys" and we need to learn from those experiences and move on. Will life come to an end because the OP's girlfriend was denied boarding on the flight through the US? Of course not. It's just a complication that needs to be dealt with. I'm sure that something will eventually be worked out. It's just human nature that when one is faced with an unexpected issue one looks for someone or something to blame even though some of the blame falls upon one's self.

[chrisal]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

If you bought a TV from BestBuy and you asked them if it was compatible with digital transmission, and BestBuy said Yes and you subsequently found out it was not, would you feel you had a grievance against BestBuy?

Why should airlines be any different to this? They have a simple remedy. If they do not want to give advice on visa's then don't give it. However, if they do give the passenger advice on visa's then they should be held responsible for misleading the customer.

The mantra that it is the passengers fault is ridiculous. The passenger asked the airline for advice. The airline had a choice. Give the advice or not. They made the wrong choice and now they should be responsible for that choice. They also had the option of telling the passenger that the information can be found on their website.

You know what Jim, I couldn't have put it better myself! This is exactly what I am getting at. This is exactly my arguement! Unfortunately though, according to PHX I am a WHINER and an IMBECILE so there is absolutely no way I could have made this arguement myself? Hmmmm

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

I just did a test booking on Delta.com to travel from EZE (Buenos Aires) to MAN (Manchester, UK). After selecting the flights and at the bottom of the page where one is given the fare breakdown and the option to "Review and Purchase" the following appears:



When one clicks on the link provided, the following information is given:




Aftyer this information is displayed there is an area where one can fill in their nationality, what country they are originating in, their destination, etc. which links to IATA'a TimaticWeb application which will tell you exactly what is required in the way of passports, visas, etc.

PHX I'm afraid this totally misses the point of my original arguement which was with reference to a telephone call where my girlfriend was lied to by Delta. What you have done here is to prove that if you buy online there are steps in place to make you aware of possible visa requirements. However, this is totally irrelevant to the point of my thread. If you would like to make a comment as to why Delta have lied to me and are getting away with it though, I would be most interested.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by chrisal

PHX I'm afraid this totally misses the point of my original arguement which was with reference to a telephone call where my girlfriend was lied to by Delta. What you have done here is to prove that if you buy online there are steps in place to make you aware of possible visa requirements. However, this is totally irrelevant to the point of my thread. If you would like to make a comment as to why Delta have lied to me and are getting away with it though, I would be most interested.

I never said it was germane to your situation, rather it was in response to this post by mars6423:

Originally Posted by mars6423

i think we should all start an online petition to get airlines to have a page before purchasing that shows what documents may be needed through and to the final destinations (visa's, and any other documents, so that you can see if there are anything that you have to do........the airlines would than be happy than coz they wouldnt get frustrated customers at their feet, and than they could say that they saw the page with the requirements its the cust. responsibilit they saw it clear)

(emphasis mine)

I assumed by "page" he meant "webpage."

Originally Posted by chrisal

You know what Jim, I couldn't have put it better myself! This is exactly what I am getting at. This is exactly my arguement! Unfortunately though, according to PHX I am a WHINER and an IMBECILE so there is absolutely no way I could have made this arguement myself? Hmmmm

I never called you a whiner or an imbecile. I was referring to someone else who posted months ago on a situation involving a visa to visit Australia. If I had, though, I think you'll agree that "whiner" and "imbecile" are mild in comparison to what you called me!

[chrisal]

[quote=PHXFlyer;13933]And just to add to the above...

There was another whiner on this forum who claimed he had no idea a visa would be required for a US citizen to enter Australia. If you scroll down furhter on the page mentioned above you'll see this:


Again PHX you have missed the point entirely here. This is totally irrelevant as it is for someone who actually wishes to spend a holiday in that country ie Australia. My girlfriend did check the British Embassy website before travelling as she wanted to make sure they would let her into the country. Your example of the other "WHINER" has nothing to do with this situation, however, as we have no interest whatsoever in the States and had no intention of setting foot outside the airport. And we did check visa requirements for the country she would be holidaying in also, making our "WHINING CASE" a little different to the American who didn't even check to see if he would need a visa in Australia where he was to have his holiday. By the way does this still make us "IMBECILES" as well as "WHINERS"?

So do you see that all you imbeciles who think you can just go jetting off anywhere you goddam please without checking entry and transit requirements. Even the friendly nation of Australia requires a visa from ALL VISITORS. So now don't go crying the blues when you're turned away at the airport for not having the proper visa to travel. Quote from PHX

It seems that PHX is upto his old tricks again, trying to get some sort of reaction from me. But you know, I'm learning from my mistakes. I've learnt never to travel with Delta again and I'm also learning that this is a democratic site and if PHX wants to call me a whiner and an imbecil, then that's his prerogotive (his spelling not mine). My beef is with Delta not him. My opinions of him, I shall keep to myself from now on.

[PHXFlyer]

[quote=chrisal;13956]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

... and if PHX wants to call me a whiner and an imbecil, then that's his prerogotive (his spelling not mine). My beef is with Delta not him. My opinions of him, I shall keep to myself from now on.

Really? Better check that post again:

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

It's my thread. If I want to make an issue of UK vs. US spelling that's my prerogative!

(We all know, however, that the "Queen's English" is the more proper.)

I'm glad you seem to have found a proper English language dictionary:

Originally Posted by chrisal

PHXFlyer, in your post regarding spelling I was just wondering if you could tell me what the word "prerogative" means? I looked it up in the dictionary but I couldn't see it anywhere?

At least in that post you spelled it correctly!