[justme]

Quick question, I just noticed that Southwest and AirTran are listed under the U.S. airlines heading, and Spirit and JetBlue are listed separately under Low Budget airlines. Am I misinformed that Soutwest and AirTran are indeed low cost carriers? All four are U.S. carriers aren't they? Certainly if JetBlue is in the category, SW and AT should be as well seeing as how JB is much nicer than any of the other 3. Just wondering if I'm alone in my thinking?

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

In the USA the term "low cost carrier," "budget," etc. has almost lost any meaning.

Spirit Air probably comes closest to the original meaning of these words. The price of your ticket covers transportation, and nothing more. Said transportation can be in a middle seat, next to the toilet, and in the back of the plane. You pay for a better seat, food, and checked baggage. US Airways actually claims to be a "low cost carrier." Their stock ticker symbol is "LCC"--Low Cost Carrier.

In the generic sense of these terms Southwest might be the only EXCEPTION. Just about all other US-based carriers operate at significant variance to their timetables (poor reliability,) and have a lot of help with attitude problems.

[justme]

I agree the term "low cost" carrier (LCC) has somewhat lost it's original meaning, but you still can't say that SW, JB, AT, Spirt, Ryan, (former Song and Ted) and the like are in the same class as DL/NW, CO, AA, UA, AF, LH etc. True, all airlines are doing their level best to keep prices at a minimum in order to compete in the same markets, but when you but a ticket on a LCC for $59, don't expect the same kind of service you would get on a non-LCC for the same flight. On that same note, don't expect to get a ticket on a non-LCC for the same price as the LCC's are selling them for. You said Spirit comes the closest to a "true" LCC because the cost of the ticket covers only the cost of transportation, and if you want a better seat such as an exit row, bulkhead or whatever, you have to pay more. How is this any different than any other airline? What are you getting for the price of your ticket other than transport from A to B? And certainly you have to pay more on every airline if you want a "better" seat! SW is general admission based on how much you paid for your ticket! And speaking of SW, what does an airlines "timetable" have to do with being a LCC? Are you saying SW never has late departures or arrivals? If you are, you are mistaken. And what does attitudes have to do with being a LCC? IMO, it doesn't.

[bah humbug]

Originally Posted by justme

You said Spirit comes the closest to a "true" LCC because the cost of the ticket covers only the cost of transportation, and if you want a better seat such as an exit row, bulkhead or whatever, you have to pay more. How is this any different than any other airline?

Airtran does not charge more for any other seat (except business class) except if done in advance. Jetblue charges more at check in time for seats with more leg room. Airtran does not. Bulkhead, exit row......no extra charge.

[justme]

Originally Posted by bah humbug

Airtran does not charge more for any other seat (except business class) except if done in advance. Jetblue charges more at check in time for seats with more leg room. Airtran does not. Bulkhead, exit row......no extra charge.

Since when does AirTran have business class? How pitiful it must be... And you just contradicted yourself... AirTran DOES charge more for certain seats when booked in advance. Every airline charges more for specific seats whether they charge you to "book in advance" or charge for "extra leg room." They have different ways of saying it, but they all do it.

[bah humbug]

Originally Posted by justme

Since when does AirTran have business class? How pitiful it must be... And you just contradicted yourself... AirTran DOES charge more for certain seats when booked in advance. Every airline charges more for specific seats whether they charge you to "book in advance" or charge for "extra leg room." They have different ways of saying it, but they all do it.

Airtran has had business class for 10 years.

How did I contradict myself when I said EXCEPT for when done in advance. Airtran does not REQUIRE you to pay for advance seat assignments. They offer it to you IF you want it.

AT TIME OF CHECK IN........Airtran DOES NOT charge extra for bulkhead or exit row. They do NOT charge for "extra leg room"!!

Did you even read the post before you started spouting off??

[justme]

Yup, read it twice. No airline REQUIRES you to pay extra for seats. IF you CHOOSE that seat, you pay whatever price is associated with it, period. I think we are agreeing, just saying it differently.

And BUSINESS?? class, we talking the same business class as AA, DL/NW, CO, UA? No, don't think so. They just call it that to make you think you're getting something better. Its like sitting in "FC" on a regional jet.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

...what does an airlines "timetable" have to do with being a LCC?...what does attitudes have to do with being a LCC?

Try to imagine Lufthansa as the Nieman Marcus of the air and most of the US-based carriers as the Walmart of the air. "LCC" is a statement about your service product and the attitude that backs it up. Accordingly, by this standard, Southwest is NOT an "LCC." Ryan Air, on the other hand, definitely is.

Or, put another way, one can not, with any degree of credibility, say that civilized behavior, on the part of staff, carries the same importance at American Air as it does at Lufthansa.

[justme]

Butch, low cost and low class are completely different things. Although they do generally coincide, not always. The reason U.S. carriers are the "Wal-mart" of the air is because that's what the "Wal-mart" people of the world demanded. SW is the original LCC and always will be. IMO they get quite a bit of credit for ruining the airline culture and class.

[oh my]

If charging more for exit rows, etc... at check-in qualifies you as a low-cost carrier, then Quantas, Singapore Air, NW and DL are low-cost, and AirTran is not??? No, I didn't think so.

AirTran Airways, a subsidiary of AirTran Holdings (NYSE: AAI), is a low-fare airline designed for business travelers, offering Business class, new planes with XM Satellite Radio and EasyFit Overhead Bins, assigned seats, and our accommodating frequent flier program A+ Rewards. AirTran Airways' mix of low fares and an affordable Business Class with excellent customer service and one of the world's youngest all-Boeing fleets has continued to strike a chord with the public.

That is from AirTran's website. They call themselves a "low-fare" carrier. Take that how you want it, but i know that AA, UA, DL/NW, and CO certainly don't consider themselves "low-fare."

I think the "a-la-carte" phrase they've adopted is probably a good umbrella term for all the airlines lately. I think the lines between "low-cost" and not is very blurred right now.

However, for those of you like myself who run to wikipedia for everything, this is a list of low-cost carriers in the US. check the entire list out here:

• AirTran Airways Domestic Routes and International
• Allegiant Air Domestic Routes and International Charter
• Frontier Airlines Domestic, Mexico, Alaska and Costa Rica Routes
• Go! Hawaiian Islands Only
• Horizon Air Domestic, Canada, and Mexico Routes
• Island Air Hawaiian Islands Only
• JetAmerica Domestic Routes
• JetBlue Airways Domestic, Caribbean, and South America Routes
• Southwest Airlines Domestic Routes
• Spirit Airlines Domestic, Caribbean, and South America Routes
• Sun Country Airlines Domestic, Mexico, and Caribbean Routes
• Virgin America Domestic Routes
• USA3000 Airlines Domestic, Caribbean and Mexico Routes

[oh my]

i should correct myself. The list above was from wikipedia's "low cost airline" list. Here is their description of a "low cost Carrier"

[PHXFlyer]

How to tell if you're flying a "Low Cost Carrier (LCC).":

IF the staff, from the person checking you in to the flight attendants, are wearing polo shirts and tennis shoes...you're flying on a LCC.

If all the seats on the aircraft look the same (no first-class cabin)...you're flying on a LCC.

If you ARE flying in first-class and the wine is being served in plastic cups...you're flying on a LCC.

If you're choice of seating is what's left after those who paid in advance for a seat assignment (or you weren't offered a seat assignment at all)...you're flying on a LCC.

If the airline's idea of "gourmet cuisine" is honey-roasted peanuts and turkey jerky...you're flying on a LCC.

If when your flight is canceled and are told "we can't re-book you on another airline (no interline agreements) and our next available flight is in two days"...you're flying on a LCC.

If you can't buy a ticket for the airline on Expedia, Orbitz or Travelocity...you're flying on a LCC.

If the safety briefing is sung, rapped, or delivered with "schtick" in-between the instructions...you're flying on a LCC.

If you're asked to carry cases of soda, ice, or bags of peanuts down the jetway to be delivered to the flight attendant...you're flying on a LCC.

If the airline departs from an airport that no other airline uses and has nothing but a newsstand with only the local Pennysaver and the Auto Trader for reading material...you're flying on a LCC.

If you can trade in your soda can at the end of a flight for the 5 cent deposit...you're flying on a LCC.

Okay...this has gone on long enough. If anyone cares to add to this feel free.

[AirlineComplaints.org]

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Southwest Airlines and AirTran have been moved to the Low-Budget Airline Complaints section.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by AirlineComplaints.org

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Southwest Airlines and AirTran have been moved to the Low-Budget Airline Complaints section.

What about US Airways? When America West merged with US Air they chose the stock ticker symbol LCC. This was deliberate. I say if they want to be identified as such then we should consider them as such!

[bah humbug]

Everyone please forgive me, I am about to agree with "justme".....

Originally Posted by justme

The reason U.S. carriers are the "Wal-mart" of the air is because that's what the "Wal-mart" people of the world demanded.

Not everyone has the luxury of shopping at "Neiman Marcus" (lobster and wine)...so the public demanded "Walmart" (chips and soda"). However.....the public thinks they can get a "Walmart" price and get they still want "Neiman Marcus" service.....

I see $59.00 fares all day long......what?...and you still want that lobster and wine? Give me a break. $59.00 is only gonna get you the plate, if you want anything else, that's extra.

The public demanded and you now have what you have been demanding.....STOP COMPLAINING!!


By the way? How can you describe Southwest as having culture and class? Oh wait, it said IMO...now I get it...ha ha

[justme]

Bah, you act like agreeing with me is a bad thing! I'm on your side!

[bah humbug]

Originally Posted by justme

Bah, you act like agreeing with me is a bad thing! I'm on your side!

You CAN'T be on my side....I am pro Airtran!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by bah humbug

You CAN'T be on my side....I am pro Airtran!

Interesting. So now I'm curious. Is there any information you canshare about te Captain vs. the TSO that I read in the news recently? Personally I hope the Capt. is found innocent and turns around and sues the officer and the TSA. In addition I feel AirTran has a case as well for all of the bad press associated with this incident. Of course this is way off topic...but as I said I was just curious.

[bah humbug]

The one and only thing that is consistant about airlines is that they are very tight lipped about everything. Anything we find out will always be from a press release.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

bah humbug wrote...
How can you describe Southwest as having culture and class?

Easy, compare the number of complaints the DOT receives about Southwest against the number of complaints about United and Delta/Northwest.

Also, can someone please explain the differences in the quality of the service product, or the quality of the "customer experience," between Spirit Air and United. I'm sorry, but just because you have an extensive international route network does NOT qualify you to claim excellence in customer service. I submit that Spirit and United BOTH produce an equally BAD service product!

[justme]

Originally Posted by bah humbug

By the way? How can you describe Southwest as having culture and class? Oh wait, it said IMO...now I get it...ha ha

I didn't say they had culture and class, I said they ruined it. But really what ruined it is all the cheapa$$ people in the US that want 1980's service and expect to be treated like royalty for less than it costs the airline to fly them around. SW was just the first successful attempt to cater to that demand, and by doing so, has made it somewhat of the "norm." Very unfortunate that that is the case. Hope that makes my opinion of LCCs a little clearer.