[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

By the way, if you haven't noticed, you are really the only one bringing up the passenger bill of rights stuff

So, if you had your way, all discussion of Airline Passenger Rights / Kate Hanni would be banned? And how does this position NOT support the Air Transport Association?

Jetliner, you want to have it both ways. You don't want your friends on here carrying the label "Airline Sympathizer" and you ALSO want to be able to, almost, consistently make posts favoring the airlines and dismissing the concerns of the customer. And your reasoning (or lack of it!) behind this is that most, or all, customer complaints are "BS," and all airline employees are little angels being abused by big bad customers!

[seeker80]

You gotta be kidding me. I could bore you to tears with the number of times I flew and HAD to be somewhere and the airlines did not get me there. Here are a few highlights.

#1 Flying Indy to TUC thru Denver (old airport). Call the day before because there is snow everywhere. "Your flight is still good to go". Call in the morning before I leave for the airport and they say "on-time departure is anticipated". Leave on time. Get into Denver and the place is bedlam. They have one runway operating. There are aircraft at every gate and the concourses are full of people. Problem is, crews can't get to the airport. Spend the next 20 hours in the airport with no food or TP. The place had broken down. So Indy crams their flights out and dumps them into chaos? Nice.

Needless to say, I did not get to meetings I HAD to get to the next day. I damn near could have driven to TUC in the time Continental had me in their grip. I have made the trip driving to TUC a half a dozen times (relocating household/starting jobs) and always arrived exactly when I planned. If there was weather in No. NM or AZ I just went South to thru Las Cruces.

I did learn a valuable lesson. NEVER fly Denver in the winter. NEVER. I started flying American thru Dallas.

#2 I was working a big project in the UK. Needed to attend a conference to give a status in Indy before returning to my office in HI. I set up my flight to get into Indy a day ahead of the conference. AM flight was cancelled due mechanical. Later flight is delayed 2 hrs. for who knows what. Miss my new connection at JFK due to the delay. Spend overnight in NY. Did the conference I HAD to attend via phone from the concourse. Couldn't drive from London, but damn sure was done with United.

#3 I was returning to TUC via PHX from SD. Mechanical delay in PHX. Rented a car and beat the airplane. Stopped flying out of TUC and started driving the 2 hrs to Sky Harbor. It got to be such a hassle and introduced more moving parts which could/would break that it was easier to drive to a direct flight in PHX.

I could go on and on about O'Hare, Atlanta, etc. etc., but would it really matter?

I said what I said. You guys are undependable and unpleasant. Your service levels sux. If airlines ran nuclear powerplants, this entire planet would be glowing and uninhabitable.

Repeating just to prove that your believe system has some holes...

My boss has stopped trying to run his region by plane. If you try to get into smaller markets in this country you are rolling the dice. If you can do Columbus in 3 hrs why would you fly? Chicago 4 hrs? Faster to drive. Milwaukee 5.5? Still makes more sense with the amount of time required to clear security, layovers, luggage.

There is no train system in this country. Trillions of government dollars have gone into building roads and airports. Indy just finished building a $Billion$ dollar white elephant airport. I just wish sometime over the past 50 years a little of that money would have gone into a high speed rail to Chicago.

It would have been worth every penny just to avoid O'Hare.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

There is no train system in this country.

There's no question Amtrak offers limited destination options. And travel across the dividing line marked by Chicago will require a change in Chicago. Still, for wintertime travel, Amtrak offers something the airlines frequently don't--they keep moving. Granted, with major delays. But it takes several feet of snow to brings things to a complete halt. The airlines? Two flakes and everything shuts-down.

[Gromit801]

As an ex-locomotive engineer, I can tell you with expert qualifications, that the railroads come to a flipping halt as often, if not more so than airlines.

Snow: As soon as the snow is over the top of the rails, traffic must be halted for snow removal.

Tracks: The tracks are ALWAYS under repair somewhere along the route, causing stoppages and slowdowns. Tracks are also affected by rain washouts.

Wind: Gusts of over 45 miles an hour requires the train to be stopped, and tied down. That's railroad talk for securing the train.

So don't talk about railroads unless you KNOW what you're talking about.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

So using your story, wise guy, I guess we're supposed to believe that every single time it snows between Boston and Washington the traffic is shut down??

Try another brand of BS!

[Silent Bob]

I would tend to agree with Gromit that trains deal with delays just as much as airlines do, and its even worse considering how slow you'll be moving across snow (know this from experience... not pretty)

Seeker your first point is moot, 1) you were dealing with weather 2) you called the airlines who're somewhere other than the airport so yea to them your plane was on time, only when you arrived... chaos! Who do blame if the problem started with the snow? You blame the person on the phone who said your plane was on time? Any "season" traveler knows not to take what's said over the phone with some grain of salt, ESPECIALLY when dealing with weather because when you arrive at the airport you don't know what to expect.

your second point? Give me a mechanical delay any day of the week, especially if I'm on a connecting flight that way I get a direct. united and Continental both handle these situations rather well in getting you out as quickly as possible, by any means, on any other airline. if their flights are not full.

Lastly, by your post it would appear that you are talking to the airline directly

You guys are undependable and unpleasant. Your service levels sux.

You guys have slowly but surely eliminated your advantage. Speed/comfort. The delta is getting smaller and you guys are just so undependable and unpleasant.

are you aware this is a forum, not affiliated with any airline?

[seeker80]

my points are directed at those in this board who work for the airlines and deflect any problem with "everybody knows you can't trust us, its your fault that you did".

[Gromit801]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

So using your story, wise guy, I guess we're supposed to believe that every single time it snows between Boston and Washington the traffic is shut down??

Try another brand of BS!

Hey, ubertwit.

If you take your head out of your a** you might see what I wrote. When the level of the snow covers the rails, snow removal must commence. Snow builds up under modern locomotives under the trucks and motors, and can derail a locomotive you utter blithering f**l.

You don't know anything at all about the railroad. I spent 10 years running with SP and UP.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

I spent 10 years running with SP and UP.

And now you shill for the airlines! (in my opinion)

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

So, if you had your way, all discussion of Airline Passenger Rights / Kate Hanni would be banned? And how does this position NOT support the Air Transport Association?

I, nor anyone else said any such thing. Quite putting words in my mouth, or in this case posts. My point is that this board is for people to voice complaints about airlines. I don't read every complaint (I don't have time) so forgive me if I've missed something, but I haven't seen that many where people were stuck on planes for hours on end.

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

Jetliner, you want to have it both ways. You don't want your friends on here carrying the label "Airline Sympathizer"

Um, why don't you go back and actually read the posts. I did not start this thread, nor have I really and truly stated against that label. I've weighed in on some of what was said, but not once did I say that label is wrong.

What I find interesting here is the fact that of all the people who have stated they think that label is wrong, you didn't attack any of them as you have me, who hasn't said the label is wrong.

[airhead]

To AADFW:

I hear ya. And for the most part I agree with you. The problems are:

The general public still demand the service, or lack thereof, in the airline industry. If it was not true, then larger decreases in ticket sales would be apparent.

The deceptive marketing strategies of airlines is wrong but the fine print details it. I don't agree with this but it is what it is and people are still buying this stuff. My point of demand still stands.

If the all the airlines had the same sliding scale of fees, that would require regulation on a large scale and I think that too would not work since the government is not good at this sort of thing.

Today's flying industry is in sad shape but most of them are making JUST enough money to do it. I don't understand why financial investors put their money in this industry. Maybe it is because so many millions of people are still buying the tickets.

[Gromit801]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

I spent 10 years running with SP and UP.

And now you shill for the airlines!

And you are shilling for the railroads. Have a vested interest in there do you with your"hate the airlines" website?

[PHXFlyer]

The only "freebie" I've ever received for a service recovery issue was a $300 voucher for an eight hour mechanical delay and I didn't even ask for that! Every other "freebie" I've received was for voluntary bumps when flights were oversold.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by Gromit801

And you are shilling for the railroads. Have a vested interest in there do you with your"hate the airlines" website?

And Kate Hanni. Don't for get Kate. She's probably shelled out thousands to him by now.

[Jetliner]

Disregard - accidental duplicate point.

[Gromit801]

Just putting the "was I really a hoghead" (locomotive engineer) nonsense to bed. Came across my last license going through some junk in the garage.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Obviously, if I didn't respond, Jetliner, Silent Bob, you, and the other airline stooges on here would try to seize upon my silence as some kind of smoking gun.

OK, Grommit, I'll give you a chance to flush your credentials down the toilet:

In another post you made a comment which, to me, and perhaps others, suggested that Amtrak was every bit as prone to bad weather as the planes are. So, I'll re-phrase my original question:

If flights are severely delayed, because of weather, at airports in the Boston - Washington corridor (Amtrak's "Northeast Corridor" Line) do you want us to believe that Amtrak will be comparably delayed?? As an example, are we to assume, according to your expertise, that severe icing on the runways automatically equates to major delays at Amtrak stations nearby?? I, of course, am referring to WEATHER RELATED delays, not the harrassment (er, "interference") of Amtrak trains by "host" railroads.

I await, with interest, YOUR response. Please, no surrogates, no "ghost writers"--that means you, Jetliner, Silent Bob, and the other stooges.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

The "harrassment" I wrote of, in the previous post, was NOT intended to refer to Amtrak's "Northeast Corridor" line. A good example of said harrassment can be found on Amtrak's Empire Builder line (Chicago - Minneapolis - North Dakota - Montana - State of Washington)

[Gromit801]

Frankly, I don't care what you believe. I have satisfied myself, and possibly others too, that you don't know anything about railroad operations, and will twist anything to mean what you want it to mean. You will ignore valid points raised by others, and attack from another direction. To you, 1+1+3.

I said, to quote, "When the level of the snow covers the rails, snow removal must commence." If that isn't plain english for you, I'll try another language.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

And thanks for, not so artfully, avoiding the question. Spoken like a true airline shill! Now that I think about it, maybe you should have let Silent Bob ghost write your answer for you.

I forgot to mention that the switches, along Amtrak's "Northeast Corridor" line, are equipped with gas (either propane or natural) jets to ensure continued operation in freezing weather. This is, obviously, an item airline shills, like yourself, want to keep quiet.

Said gas jets may be absent on other Amtrak lines.

[PHXFlyer]

When are the airline employees on this forum going to get their big red banners in all caps?

[Gromit801]

Butch. You like to avoid anything you don't have an answer for. Heating the switches. Very nice. Only used in a small area of the national system, and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the tracks. Heated switches also do not prevent the build up of snow over the rest of the tracks, or is that too much logic for you to digest?

Every time you open your mouth about the railroads, your ignorance pours out.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Your friend, Jetliner, likes to use garbage, from another airline stooge, on another board, which says I get "called-out" and then don't respond. It's a lie, of course. The jerk on the other board just didn't like my answers--because they didn't conform to pro-airline, anti-customer propaganda, and, quite frankly, it looks like that's the same issue here.

As to being "called-out," then not responding: It looks like that's what you're doing here. Yes, finally, you did, sort of, respond to my question about Amtrak vs. the airlines in the Boston - Washington corridor. Unfortunately you haven't clarified some disinformation you put-out about about Amtrak operations in general: I think others on here--obviously not your airline stooge friends--would agree that your comment about snow clearance on the tracks (which I agree is probably true) is intended to infer that Amtrak is prone to every bit as much bad weather as the airlines are. I think the truth behind this feeble attempt at deception is that, when it comes to Amtrak (or commuter railroad operations) there's snow, and then there's snow, or ice, etc. Yes, there IS weather that will bring a train to a grinding halt. On the other hand, Grommit, using your expertise, are you prepared to go on record and say that the same types of weather which affect airline operations--such as lightening within a given range of the airport--likewise affects train operations??

It will be interested to see what kind of answer, if any, Grommit can provide.

By the way, Jetliner, with regard to:

those on here that want to use the forum as a soapbox for their own agenda and to bash the airlines, without ever having posted one single actual complaint themselves

So, can you, please, provide some links to all the threads you started, on this board, which involve a complaint, about a specific experience, you yourself, went through. I think those who favor airline customers on here would be interested in your "encore performances."

I'd be careful, Jetliner, about what I wish for. If that became a rule, the good news is you'd be rid of me. The bad news is a lot of your friends on here would be gone too! I'm sorry, Jetliner, as I've indicated before, there ARE news sources, dear child, OTHER than the Air Transport Association, that CAN be objective. Making comments, based on said sources, is entirely appropriate.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

those on here that want to use the forum as a soapbox for their own agenda and to bash the airlines

By your own admission, Jetliner, you bash customers who arrive late for their flight.

I may sit-down, with a tape measure, and measure my carry-on to make sure it conforms to the requirements of the smallest aircraft I will be travelling on. Not everyone does that. You got very huffy when I compared a Contract of Carriage to an insurance policy, but its the truth. The New York Times is written for an eighth grade reading level. I'm not sure that's the case with a Contract of Carriage.

The reality is, air travel, as another poster suggested, a "gottcha" game. If an airline wants to the overwhelming number of customers could be significantly inconvenienced by reason of having failed to comply with one rule or another.

Is it realistic for a customer to expect to be boarded if they arrive at check-in 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure? Probably not. Should there be some flexibility in the type of tickets that are sold so these types of misunderstandings, on the part of the customer, are less damaging? Certainly. As has been pointed-out, Southwest offers such flexibility.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

those on here that want to use the forum as a soapbox for their own agenda and to bash the airlines, without ever having posted one single actual complaint themselves

I'm not complaining about the airlines, YOU are. You go on and on about how bad the airlines are, yet all you ever have are other people's "war" stories.

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

By your own admission, Jetliner, you bash customers who arrive late for their flight.

UM, OK. Would you care to enlighten everyone as to exactly where I made any such statement? (This ought to be good) I've been known to blurt stuff out in German sometimes Spanish, but I don't recall posting in said languages, other than Bye in one recent post.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not your kid. In fact there's a good chance that you wouldn't quite be old enough to be my dad, and I probably would have slit my wrists if you were my father.