[jimworcs]

Justme,

I think you are not reading what I wrote properly.

You stated that Delta do not advise customers of a schedule change in their flight, even if they know that the flight details have changed, until 1 month before departure because before then it would be subject to further change.

I argued that other airlines routinely email customers of changes. It is low cost and can be done automatically. I named airlines who do this. I argued that Delta do not do this for revenue protection reasons. If they wait until a month before departure, the chances of the customer asking for a refund and making alternative arrangements are significantly reduced. I said you were naive to think otherwise.

Now, I have answered your question comprehensively. I would like you to answer mine. Where Delta has the email addresses of their customers, why don't they programme their system to email customers automatically every time a schedule change is made which affects their booking?

[PHXFlyer]

Tell ya what folks. In order to extend a voucher I had on Delta I booked a ticket on 10/20/09 for travel on 9/15/10. Now mind you I have no intention of actually taking the trip I booked, I just had to find a penalty-free fare as close to the original voucher amount as possible and booked out as far in the future as possible. Let's use this as a test case to see what Delta really does with schedule changes. Do they notify after each change or only when the schedule is close to finalization.

Now this may not be such a great test because it involves flying from PHX to ATL, a hub, then ATL to CVG, another hub. There is very little chance that either of those flights will change from non-stop to direct or connecting flights so the only changes will be probably be flight times and possibly flight numbers.

[jimworcs]

Yes, this will be a interesting example if any changes made. However, we have been told already by Justme, who is afterall on the inside, that Delta do not notify customers of schedule changes until 4-6 weeks before departure.

[justme]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Now, I have answered your question comprehensively. I would like you to answer mine.

I will do my best, but since I am not one of the bean counters, and never have been. I am only making educated guesses as to why things are or are not done.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Where Delta has the email addresses of their customers, why don't they programme their system to email customers automatically every time a schedule change is made which affects their booking?

I imagine the reason they don't send out an email every time a change is made, is because people would get so many emails that they would spam block Delta and then when a notice is sent out of something important, it would be missed. Knowing what I know about how these decisions are made, it was more than likely a bunch of people sitting at a round table coming to the consensus that it would be better for our customers to not get 20 emails a month about minor changes that are subject to further changes, which depending on how far out you book are still subject to even further changes, until one month prior at which point it becomes mostly set in stone. Of course, there are still changes made inside the 30 day window in extreme circumstances, but those are rare. Thinking from a customers POV, those would be the changes I would want to know about, not all the little ones 3 months prior.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

...we have been told already by Justme, who is afterall on the inside, that Delta do not notify customers of schedule changes until 4-6 weeks before departure.

Never stated that as fact. As I said, I am not "on the inside" of this process.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by justme

I imagine the reason they don't send out an email every time a change is made, is because people would get so many emails that they would spam block Delta and then when a notice is sent out of something important, it would be missed. Knowing what I know about how these decisions are made, it was more than likely a bunch of people sitting at a round table coming to the consensus that it would be better for our customers to not get 20 emails a month about minor changes that are subject to further changes, which depending on how far out you book are still subject to even further changes, until one month prior at which point it becomes mostly set in stone. Of course, there are still changes made inside the 30 day window in extreme circumstances, but those are rare. Thinking from a customers POV, those would be the changes I would want to know about, not all the little ones 3 months prior.

I would also venture a guess that it's to minimize the number of calls into Delta's call centers. If every schedule change generated calls from people inquiring about their travel six months from now (the schedule for which will likely change again) the telephone agents would be unavailable to handle customers with more urgent concerns.

[nitetrain]

Hi All and thank you for your replies. A few points of clarification if I may. The poster that intimated flights are not confirmed until one month out is incorrect. Please refer to the following confirmation change received: A schedule change for your itinerary departing on January 5 has occurred. Your new flight schedule follows:

Flight: NW 2436
From: Minneapolis - St Paul, Minnesota
To: Tampa, Florida
Departure Time: January 5, 10:20 am
Arrival Time: January 5, 2:27 pm


Confirmation number: 778N4E

That is a 3 hour direct flight that I wanted. Nothing else. Point #2. While it may be easy in the world of some to reschedule, the remaining direct flight was booked or arrived around midnight. There is quite a difference between 2:30 p.m. and midnight. Point #3. Please refer to my post that states MSP to DFW to TPA is a 5 1/2 flight. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time than waste 2 1/2 hours or more if there is a weather delay in January in DFW. This is more than a 2 hour difference someone referred to from the airline's own confirmation:

A schedule change for your itinerary departing on January 5 has occurred. Your new flight schedule follows:

Flight: NW 2348
From: Minneapolis - St Paul, Minnesota
To: Detroit, Michigan
Departure Time: January 5, 10:00 am
Arrival Time: January 5, 12:49 pm

Flight: NW 2406
From: Detroit, Michigan
To: Tampa, Florida
Departure Time: January 5, 1:55 pm
Arrival Time: January 5, 4:38 pm

Point #4. Sun Country is not an option not only because they are in bankruptcy, but because they do not have an accommodating schedule, especially for the return trip.

Point #5. I am not about to, nor should I have to change planes when I book a confirmed direct flight. This customer did not institute the changes, Northwest/Delta airlines did.

Point #6. This customer would have accepted an upgrade for this inconvenience, but when it was requested the NW service rep said "NO." As in not an option. As in they don't really care about their "Customer First" claim. Quite the contrary. My experience proves that to be a gross exaggeration.

Point #7. Regarding my hotel and car. Since no reasonable alternative was available to me January 5, 2010 my only recourse was to fly either late January 4th or January 6th via NW. Since my wife and I both work Monday and did not want to start our vacation later we opted to get to the Florida warmth earlier. That means we have to change our hotel and car reservations at added costs obviously. Not to mention the time to cancel our car reservation (required) and reschedule an extra day. That costs more money where I live and where I vacation. Same for the hotel.

[nitetrain]

My apologies if this post previously appears....

Hi All and thank you for your replies. A few points of clarification if I may. The poster that intimated flights are not confirmed until one month out is incorrect. Please refer to the following confirmation change received: A schedule change for your itinerary departing on January 5 has occurred. Your new flight schedule follows:

Flight: NW 2436
From: Minneapolis - St Paul, Minnesota
To: Tampa, Florida
Departure Time: January 5, 10:20 am
Arrival Time: January 5, 2:27 pm


Confirmation number: 778N4E

That is a 3 hour direct flight that I wanted. Nothing else. Point #2. While it may be easy in the world of some to reschedule, the remaining direct flight was booked or arrived around midnight. There is quite a difference between 2:30 p.m. and midnight. Point #3. Please refer to my post that states MSP to DFW to TPA is a 5 1/2 flight. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time than waste 2 1/2 hours or more if there is a weather delay in January in DFW. This is more than a 2 hour difference someone referred to from the airline's own confirmation:

A schedule change for your itinerary departing on January 5 has occurred. Your new flight schedule follows:

Flight: NW 2348
From: Minneapolis - St Paul, Minnesota
To: Detroit, Michigan
Departure Time: January 5, 10:00 am
Arrival Time: January 5, 12:49 pm

Flight: NW 2406
From: Detroit, Michigan
To: Tampa, Florida
Departure Time: January 5, 1:55 pm
Arrival Time: January 5, 4:38 pm

Point #4. Sun Country is not an option not only because they are in bankruptcy, but because they do not have an accommodating schedule, especially for the return trip.

Point #5. I am not about to, nor should I have to change planes when I book a confirmed direct flight. This customer did not institute the changes, Northwest/Delta airlines did.

Point #6. This customer would have accepted an upgrade for this inconvenience, but when it was requested the NW service rep said "NO." As in not an option. As in they don't really care about their "Customer First" claim. Quite the contrary. My experience proves that to be a gross exaggeration.

Point #7. Regarding my hotel and car. Since no reasonable alternative was available to me January 5, 2010 my only recourse was to fly either late January 4th or January 6th via NW. Since my wife and I both work Monday and did not want to start our vacation later we opted to get to the Florida warmth earlier. That means we have to change our hotel and car reservations at added costs obviously. Not to mention the time to cancel our car reservation (required) and reschedule an extra day. That costs more money where I live and where I vacation. Same for the hotel.

[jimworcs]

Justme..

It is arrogant to say that you think customers would not want to be notified of the changes which you characterise as "the little ones 3 months prior". For a start, here we are talking about a very significant change and this website has loads of complaints, many aimed at Delta, that there are a considerable number of people being bumped off direct flights, onto indirect ones, even when the direct flights are still available. They find out by chance if they check. If not, by the time Delta get round to telling them they are screwed. You are very naive about the motives of your senior management and the methods they adopt.

Phx, you seem to be flip flopping on this issue. In many other posts you have repeatedly given the advice that people should continually check their reservations for changes and this is what you do. Why would you or other people do this if it didn't matter until 4 - 6 weeks before departure? The reason is that it does sometimes matter and it would cost Delta nothing to advise customers. The fact that they choose not too is highly illuminating.

The spam speculation is almost funny. Delta's schedule is such a work of fiction that the volume of emails notifying people of changes would amount to spam? That is an indictment of Delta!! I gather those who are stupid enough to tick the box saying that as a special customer, they would like to hear of offers from Delta, don't have this problem. Those emails miraculously make it through no problem. Are you seriously saying that this problem cannot be overcome. How do British Airways, Easyjet, etc manage it?

When British Airways email you.. the header is "important schedule change to your flights". I don't think too many people would delete that email without reading it. But even if they did, they would at least have had the chance. Under your system, no one is notified. Apparently it is better that no one knows than risk some people missing it because a spam filter intervened. That is topsy turvy logic... or DeltaLogic.

I suggest a new rule. If an airline sells you a direct flight and then cannot offer it, they must book you on another airline at their expense. If no direct flight is available, they must pay for any reasonable routing that will get you there at a time agreed with the customer on any carrier of the customers choosing. That would focus minds on publishing schedules which are not the work of fiction you portray them to be.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Nitetrain wrote…

Since my wife and I both work Monday and did not want to start our vacation later we opted to get to the Florida warmth earlier. That means we have to change our hotel and car reservations at added costs obviously.

To expand your line of thought a bit further: What are your plans for the possibility of bad weather? Snow/ice, in Minneapolis, might prevent your departure. Or, it could prevent your return from Tampa. Have you set-aside funds for an unexpected night at an airport hotel? Remember, the airline provides NO compensation (free rooms, etc.) for bad weather. Scheduling a return flight for Saturday would give you a one-day “buffer” in the event bad weather at Minneapolis causes a cancellation to your return flight. Thus you stand a better chance of walking into work on Monday on-time, and with a decent night’s rest.

One final thing: You spoke of “Florida warmth.” I went to school in the TampaBay area. While 50 to 60 degrees (January daytime temps, without wind chill) may be warmer than Minneapolis, for me, that’s NOT particularly warm. More than once I remember going to class wearing a winter coat.

[jimworcs]

Phx

would also venture a guess that it's to minimize the number of calls into Delta's call centers. If every schedule change generated calls from people inquiring about their travel six months from now (the schedule for which will likely change again) the telephone agents would be unavailable to handle customers with more urgent concerns.

If these changes don't matter, why would it generate calls? Perhaps it is because it would be customers calling to get a refund and booking on alternative carriers. But that wouldn't be the reason bean counters don't want them to know would it?

[PHXFlyer]

It seems that a part of the impasse over this whole situation was some inflexibility on your part. You say...

Originally Posted by nitetrain

That is a 3 hour direct flight that I wanted. Nothing else. Point #2. While it may be easy in the world of some to reschedule, the remaining direct flight was booked or arrived around midnight. There is quite a difference between 2:30 p.m. and midnight. Point #3. Please refer to my post that states MSP to DFW to TPA is a 5 1/2 flight. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time than waste 2 1/2 hours or more if there is a weather delay in January in DFW. This is more than a 2 hour difference someone referred to from the airline's own confirmation:

The simple fact is that the 3 hour direct flight you originally booked is no longer. Gone. Canceled. There is no way on Delta or Northwest that you can leave MSP and arrive TPA at the exact same times as before and spend the same three hours from beginning to end. You're refusal to accept this one basic fact is obstructing you from accepting any other reasonable accommodation.

Originally Posted by nitetrain

Point #5. I am not about to, nor should I have to change planes when I book a confirmed direct flight. This customer did not institute the changes, Northwest/Delta airlines did.

So what are you going to do? Book a flight as close to your original departure time as possible and then hijack it to Tampa?

Originally Posted by nitetrain

Point #6. This customer would have accepted an upgrade for this inconvenience, but when it was requested the NW service rep said "NO." As in not an option. As in they don't really care about their "Customer First" claim. Quite the contrary. My experience proves that to be a gross exaggeration.

You purchased an economy class ticket. Any re-accommodation you receive to get from MSP to TPA on Delta/Northwest is going to be in economy. Again you have an unreasonable expectation. What about all of the others who were on that non-stop flight? Should they all receive upgrades to first class? There just aren't that many first class seats to make that happen. Why is your situation any different from theirs? Why should you be accommodated any differently than them?

Originally Posted by nitetrain

Point #7. Regarding my hotel and car. Since no reasonable alternative was available to me January 5, 2010 my only recourse was to fly either late January 4th or January 6th via NW. Since my wife and I both work Monday and did not want to start our vacation later we opted to get to the Florida warmth earlier. That means we have to change our hotel and car reservations at added costs obviously. Not to mention the time to cancel our car reservation (required) and reschedule an extra day. That costs more money where I live and where I vacation. Same for the hotel.

Again your definition of reasonable is somewhat prejudiced here. It was pointed out before that there were options on the same day to leave slightly earlier or arrive slightly later. It was your choice to change your day of travel so it falls upon you to accept any penalties that resulted with your hotel and car arrangements.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Phx, you seem to be flip flopping on this issue. In many other posts you have repeatedly given the advice that people should continually check their reservations for changes and this is what you do. Why would you or other people do this if it didn't matter until 4 - 6 weeks before departure? The reason is that it does sometimes matter and it would cost Delta nothing to advise customers. The fact that they choose not too is highly illuminating.

I do so because even if the schedule change is minor there are sometimes equipment changes which cause a reassignment of seats. I always pre-select exit row if available but always an aisle seat. If that changes I want to be on top of it so that I have a decent seat assignment.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Phx


If these changes don't matter, why would it generate calls? Perhaps it is because it would be customers calling to get a refund and booking on alternative carriers. But that wouldn't be the reason bean counters don't want them to know would it?

I would think the mere fact that someone receives an e-mail would generate a call even if the change is only a few minutes either way. People might read the e-mail as far as the words "schedule change" and dial the phone without reading any further and realizing the the actual change was only 5 minutes or so.

[nitetrain]

You talk about me being unreasonable when you have difficutly understanding. What don't you understand about an added 2 1/2 hours to a flight? What don't you understand that the average temperature in Minneapolis in January is 13 compared to 68 in Tampa. With the negative airline issues affecting me, your replies tend to blame me or demand unreasonable conciliation. So, perhaps you are an NW/Delta employee out of touch with passengers with at fault airlines as I've explained.

[justme]

I give up. We will never get it right obviously.

[jimworcs]

You make my point very well Phx.. some of the reasons people want to know may relate to comfort.. choosing your seat or cabin class or wanting to sit next to someone or might be more important, relating to connecting to other carriers or cruise ships, etc. My argument is that it would cost Delta nothing to provide the advice and they are out of step with many others in the industry by not doing this. I strongly suspect that the reasons are more commercial and have little to do with fears of "spamming".

I doubt it will generate calls for a 5 minute change. But even if it did, then it is Delta's own fault for producing such crap schedules that they generate this many changes. Maybe it would concentrate their minds and make them produce schedules which are real, how about that revolutionary idea?

Let's be clear.. I am simply saying that Delta run their airline the way others do.. not better, just the same. Let me suggest carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Qantas, BA, Cathay Pacific and Lufthansa as models.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

You talk about me being unreasonable when you have difficutly understanding. What don't you understand about an added 2 1/2 hours to a flight? What don't you understand that the average temperature in Minneapolis in January is 13 compared to 68 in Tampa. With the negative airline issues affecting me, your replies tend to blame me or demand unreasonable conciliation. So, perhaps you are an NW/Delta employee out of touch with passengers with at fault airlines as I've explained.

I'm not an employee, just someone who travels quite a lot. In years past it was primarily business travel as the company I worked for had a presence is several states which required me to travel often. I also do a great deal of leisure travel Believe me I understand, and have already stated so, that getting changed from a non-stop to a connecting flight is inconvenient but I think you are making way more out of this than it really is. So you leave a little earlier or get there a little later. Or both. As I pointed out before with the options you had on DL/NW alone it would have meant a total shift of your travel times by only a few hours. If you absolutely had to have a non-stop flight that option was available as well just on another airline.

Now you advise us that since you felt that time shift was beyond what you feel you should have been expected to put up with you've decided to travel the evening before. Great. Glad you found something that worked for you. But don't also feel entitled to be compensated for the change in arrangements to your hotel and car. The date change was your decision. You had viable options and no one forced you to change to the day before. Accept the fact that those extra expenses are a result of your decision and move on.

Originally Posted by justme

I give up. We will never get it right obviously.

At least not in this situation. He want's it his way and nothing else. Anything short of reinstating that non-stop flight at the exact time it was originally scheduled is not going to be good enough and any alternative is just downright poor customer service. I guess Delta should have chartered him a jet!

[Silent Bob]

nitetrain, you were alerted of the change about 3 months in advance, that's actually pretty good given that most people don't find out until the night before (I think Jim has already pointed that out). But my question is... how does the 2 hours difference put you out? How is it an inconvenience? Why do you need to change hotel/care rental? Sure you wanted to be there a bit earlier, but 4:30 pm is actually still pretty good to get the car, get to th ehotel, and enjoy Tampa's night life which is pretty comfortable. If getting there before 4pm is that much of a big deal, I'd say take the refund, and ask for further recourse (such as frequent flyer miles, travel certificates, etc).

But if you do decide to keep the trip, having that connection will be the least of your worries, if winter is as cold midwest as it is in the east. You'd have to worry about snow and ice, and possibly crazy east coast weather, which could affect air traffic for your trip.

But ultimately you were given advance notice, something most people hope/hoped they would get. But ultimately enjoy your vacation.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Nitetrain: Much to the amazement of some of the "airline" people on this board there was a time in my life when I was even LESS open to "conciliation" (compromise) than I am now. I found it necessary to mellow a bit for a very practical reason---I was using too much antacid.

Unless one owns their own plane, and has a vacation condo in Florida, a significant amount of conciliation has to be on the table. The alternative is to experience every single vacation trip, which involves air travel and/or hotels, as a mini-horror story. Is it right for someone to promise to get you somewhere at 1 pm; take your money, then tell you, two months later, you won’t arrive until 10 pm? Certainly not. But that is how airlines do business. When changes like this do take place there is, almost never, a choice that can restore things to their previous state. In reality what usually exists is a choice among several bad options. Obviously, the key to “survival” is to choose the option likely to produce the least “pain.”

Good luck, and hope you have a good time in the Tampa Bay area.

[justme]

...and then don't provide any customer service. On top of that I get emails almost every day with their offers.

Saw this in another thread and couldn't resist... this is a customer who is less than happy about all the emails they were getting from the airline. Sounds like a case of spamming to me!

[jimworcs]

Justme

You can't tell the difference between marketing emails and information about a schedule change? You are in far too deep to see anything from a customer point of view. You've been Delta'd good an proper...

[justme]

I guarantee when that customer provided their email address it was so that they could be notified of schedule/seat changes. The airline used it for other purposes and the customer was not too happy about being bombarded with emails regardless of their information. This is exactly the scenario Delta is trying to avoid by not sending you an email every time a little change is made.

[jimworcs]

If a customer in Europe provides an airline with their email address for the purposes of being notified of any schedule changes or other key information, and it is used for marketing purposes, the airline would face prosecution and fines for breaching the Data Protection Act. As Delta operate in Europe, they must have systems in place to distinguish between "marketing" messages and messages for the purpose of the business relationship. I do much of my business online, including all my travel arrangements and banking. I never receive marketing emails from them because by law they must ask me if I want to receive marketing materials or not.

I think you are now suggesting something which is not true. I do not believe that Delta, who operate in many European countries, are breaking the data protection laws in Europe.

I don't know what the law is in the US in relation to this, but regardless, Delta must have the capability to distinguish, otherwise they could not allow Europeans to buy tickets from Delta.com. You cannot send marketing emails to customers without having their consent. This consent cannot be "implied" by agreeing to have communications from the company related to the transaction, eg banking, buying a ticket, etc. In other words, Delta would have to ask the customer to tick a box if they are agreeable to receiving marketing materials. They must also ask for specific separate consent to pass these details on to any partner organisations.

[PHXFlyer]

I believe in the USA they can offer an "opt-out" option rather than required to have an "opt-in" for marketing, etc. It's been a while since I've bought a ticket on an airline with which I don't already have a frequent flier account and have already "opted-in" for promotional and marketing e-mail. Next time I buy a ticket on Delta I'll do so without first logging into my account and let you know what "opt-out" or "opt-in" options are presented to me.

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

[COLOR=black]The poster that intimated flights are not confirmed until one month out is incorrect.

Actually, you are the one who's not correct with that statement. Please re-read that post - the other poster said that SCHEDULES are not finalized until one month out. They didn't say anything about being confirmed. And it is a fact that an airline's flight schedule is not final until 4-6 weeks out. That means that until that time, it's subject to change.

Also, I believe Jim was the one who made the statement about the airlines doing this to screw the passengers out of the lower fares.... your argument holds about as much water as a sieve. The fares don't start going up typically until 20 days out. And most flights have very few seats booked ore than a month out - generally about 20% of the seats or so. That still leaves plenty of discount fares available.