[DavidThi]

Ok, I know as little about the U.S. car companies as most - ie most of the models they make are not worth considering - but that's it. Who's responsible for their disaster, can the present management & workers fix it, etc - no idea.

We are now hearing talk about some of the airlines coming to Washington next with their hand out and their tale of woe. Well here I do have a bit more info to impart as I fly quite a bit. And I think we need to take a close look at why in this case.

Generally I fly Frontier and they are great. Not perfect, but great. I think having an animal on the tail of the plane with each plane named for that animal improves employee morale. There's definitely something there. And the rest of the time I fly United which is good (no animal on the tail though).

But this past break we flew Delta and what a difference. I won't go into the items that can be laid to the fact that mistakes happen but rather discusses the systemic problems I saw.

1. We had reserved seats and the night before the flight my wife checked to see if we could get exit row seats. She found that our seat assignments had been dumped, and seats could not be reserved. She called Delta and they insisted she had not gotten seat assignments (she has the printout to prove she did) and that she could not get seats then - she had to do so at the airport.
   The problem here? Their computer system randomly drops seat assignments and is incapable at times of making seat assignments. This leads to more calls in (ie higher costs) and unhappy customers.
2. So we get our seats for Denver to Atlanta, but the computer still can't do seat reservations for Atlanta - Miami. Not even the gate agent can make it happen. But we discover why shortly...
3. In Atlanta we find that the flight is way overbooked, they are telling all stand-by passengers to go away and that anyone who did not check in at that gate 45 minutes before departure time may not get a seat. So for those connecting they gamed the system to insure that you could not claim a seat and if you were stuck in Atlanta overnight you were on your own.
   What we have here is the system operating as intended, but in a way that is guaranteed to **** off the majority of people flying in order to save a couple of bucks. Being last choice to fly is not a road to success.
4. They had a single gate agent and this guy was definitely not customer focused. So 2 first class passengers walk up and he tells them to get to the back of the boarding line. They explain that they are flying first class and he tells them he doesn't care. When I get on the flight I see the woman and her daughter and they look totally ******. First class passengers are the profit, you nurture them, and these 2 are probably never going to fly Delta again.
5. Ok, so we get on the plane - all of us. Everyone is boarded and the stewardesses are talking in th aisle about how the flight is supposed to be full - but there are a boatload of empty seats. They count and run out to the gate agent to tell him that there are 22 empty seats. That's right, they ******-off all their customers and told all the stand-by passengers to go away when it was totally unnecessary.
   This is a company wrecking level of software problems. (They did manage to fill all the seats except 2.)
6. We fly down with 2 of my daughters up in the bulkhead row. We get off and they are happy. Very very happy. The 1st class steward spent the flight hitting on them and giving them free booze. That included 2 margaritas for my 19 year old daughter. I don't know who has legal jurisdiction in the air but whoever it is would probably take a dim view of a steward getting and underage girl drunk.
7. We have a great vacation and it's time to go home. We check in fine but on both sides of us are people with major problems and 2 Delta employees working on each to try to figure out their ticket. This both upsets the passenger and adds significantly to Delta's cost as 2 employees spending 10 minutes to check in a passenger is expensive.
8. Get on the flight to Denver and arrive at 11:30 pm - and there's no gate available. Virtually no one's flying in or out of Denver at that time but they don't have a gate for 10 minutes.
9. So we go down to baggage claim and we wait, and wait, and wait. For 45 minutes everyone is waiting for any bags to show up - and the rest of the baggage area is empty. Our flight is it. But no bags forever. How do your baggage handlers do nothing for close to 45 minutes?
10. The bags come out and ours are not there. So we check with Delta and they say that our bags are still in Atlanta - the computer shows they did not make the flight. We're filling out the forms when my daughter glances back over at the carousel - and there's our bags.
    Once again, the computer system has no relation with reality. And Delta was about to add the expense of driving our bags to our home over an hour away by telling us that they hadn't arrived.
11. But that was better than the guy there next to us. They told him that the system had no record of his bag and therefore they had no idea where it is. When he asked what to do they just stared at him, then went to help the next person. They wouldn't tell him what to do.

Two big things strike me here. First is that if you are desperately trying to cut costs, you get the computer systems perfect. Why? Because the cost of a competent programming team getting the software right pays for itself a million times over. But Delta has computer systems that are broken in fundamental ways. Even in a good economy this will guarantee that Delta's cost or 20% or more higher than their competitors.

The second thing is that the Delta employees just don't care anymore. They've given up and are putting nothing more than minimal effort into their job (clearly including their programmers). Not a single Delta employee we interacted with had any esprit-de-core.

Recessions are necessary to put companies like this out of business. This was a single trip but with a connecting flight both ways we saw and interacted with numerous employees and the Delta computer system multiple times at 3 airports. And it was consistently a mess.

When Delta goes out of business soon (and if they keep operating this way that is guaranteed to happen), it is rough on the employees there - but it is necessary because it is so horribly managed.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by DavidThi

Ok, I know as little about the U.S. car companies as most - ie most of the models they make are not worth considering - but that's it. Who's responsible for their disaster, can the present management & workers fix it, etc - no idea.

We are now hearing talk about some of the airlines coming to Washington next with their hand out and their tale of woe. Well here I do have a bit more info to impart as I fly quite a bit. And I think we need to take a close look at why in this case.

Where have you heard this? I Googled "airline bailout" and all I found were many references to the post 9/11 bailout in 2001, a single blog from early September, and an article about India possibly helping it's domestic airlines by reducing some taxes and landing fees at airports.

Generally I fly Frontier and they are great. Not perfect, but great. I think having an animal on the tail of the plane with each plane named for that animal improves employee morale. There's definitely something there. And the rest of the time I fly United which is good (no animal on the tail though).

Exactly how does Frontier's livery improve employee morale? You think that simply painting cute woodland animals on the tails of planes will somehow fix the morale problems at many airlines?

But this past break we flew Delta and what a difference. I won't go into the items that can be laid to the fact that mistakes happen but rather discusses the systemic problems I saw.

We had reserved seats and the night before the flight my wife checked to see if we could get exit row seats. She found that our seat assignments had been dumped, and seats could not be reserved. She called Delta and they insisted she had not gotten seat assignments (she has the printout to prove she did) and that she could not get seats then - she had to do so at the airport.

The problem here? Their computer system randomly drops seat assignments and is incapable at times of making seat assignments. This leads to more calls in (ie higher costs) and unhappy customers.

Delta has had systems issues for quite a while. In some respects DL's systems are better than other airlines and in others not. Hopefully the merger with Northwest will bring some fresh faces to the DL IT team and they can work out some of the bugs. Hopefully they will start with their crapulent website!

What probably happened in your case, and it has happened ot me before too and not just on DL, was an equipment change. When you booked your reservation DL was planning to operate one type of aircraft but due to operational changes they probably had to change the type of aircraft. Sometimes the situation is such that they aren't sure about what aircraft they will actually operate so instead of allowing people to re-choose seat assignments only to have them change again they will make you wait to get your seat assignments at the airport when they know for sure the type of aircraft and seating configuration. Yeah, it sucks but it happens.

So we get our seats for Denver to Atlanta, but the computer still can't do seat reservations for Atlanta - Miami. Not even the gate agent can make it happen. But we discover why shortly...

In Atlanta we find that the flight is way overbooked, they are telling all stand-by passengers to go away and that anyone who did not check in at that gate 45 minutes before departure time may not get a seat. So for those connecting they gamed the system to insure that you could not claim a seat and if you were stuck in Atlanta overnight you were on your own.

For better or worse airlines overbook. Had you been involuntarily denied boarding do to the oversale DL would be required to give you a hotel for the night and re-book you on the next available flight to your destination.

They had a single gate agent and this guy was definitely not customer focused. So 2 first class passengers walk up and he tells them to get to the back of the boarding line. They explain that they are flying first class and he tells them he doesn't care. When I get on the flight I see the woman and her daughter and they look totally ******. First class passengers are the profit, you nurture them, and these 2 are probably never going to fly Delta again.

If I were flying in First and was told to "go to the back of the line" I would ahve stood there until he took my boarding pass. It really doesn't matter if the two you spoke of were in First Class because they paid for it or as a result of an upgrade or were re-booked from an earlier flight in economy. If your boarding pass says "First Class" you deserve to be treated as such. I hope they got his name and reported his snarky attitude.

Ok, so we get on the plane - all of us. Everyone is boarded and the stewardesses are talking in the aisle about how the flight is supposed to be full - but there are a boatload of empty seats. They count and run out to the gate agent to tell him that there are 22 empty seats. That's right, they ******-off all their customers and told all the stand-by passengers to go away when it was totally unnecessary.
This is a company wrecking level of software problems. (They did manage to fill all the seats except 2.)

It's very possible that the 22 empty seats were a result of connecting passengers not arriving in time to make the flight. You said that there was only one agent boarding your flight so it's possible that he didn't realize until the last minute that there were misconnects which caused empty seats. At least they were able to fill most of them with standbys.

We fly down with 2 of my daughters up in the bulkhead row. We get off and they are happy. Very very happy. The 1st class steward spent the flight hitting on them and giving them free booze. That included 2 margaritas for my 19 year old daughter. I don't know who has legal jurisdiction in the air but whoever it is would probably take a dim view of a steward getting and underage girl drunk.

OK, let me get this straight. It is somehow the flight attendants job to make sure your underage daughter doesn't consume alcohol? While you are on the same plane? Sure, he didn't ask for proof of age, but your daughter accepted the drink! I agree that the flight attendant was in the wrong but so was your daughter and it seems to me that you take no responsibility for this matter either.

...but on both sides of us are people with major problems and 2 Delta employees working on each to try to figure out their ticket. This both upsets the passenger and adds significantly to Delta's cost as 2 employees spending 10 minutes to check in a passenger is expensive

Why concern yourself with other people's problems? How do you know it wasn't an agent and a supervisor or another more experienced agent helping with a complex issue? It seems to me that with a 19 year old girl getting atnked on a plane you have problems enogh without concerning yourself with the problems of others.

Get on the flight to Denver and arrive at 11:30 pm - and there's no gate available. Virtually no one's flying in or out of Denver at that time but they don't have a gate for 10 minutes.

Late at night there are aircraft parked at the gate which will depart early the next morning. While parked they are undergoing routine maintainence. I guess you would have them move a parked aircraft out of the way instead of waiting 10 minutes for a departing aircraft to free up a gate. You accuse the airline of wasting money with 2 agents helping a customer but then you would have them tow an empty aircraft away from a gate to get you off your plane 10 minutes faster. Unbelievable.

So we go down to baggage claim and we wait, and wait, and wait. For 45 minutes everyone is waiting for any bags to show up - and the rest of the baggage area is empty. Our flight is it. But no bags forever. How do your baggage handlers do nothing for close to 45 minutes?

Again, you accuse the airline of waising money but for a late night arrival you would have extra baggage handlers waiting around for your flight to arrive.

The bags come out and ours are not there. So we check with Delta and they say that our bags are still in Atlanta - the computer shows they did not make the flight.

They don't scan the bags as they are loaded onto the plane so the computer would show the last place your bags were scanned while being sorted and sent for loading.

We're filling out the forms when my daughter glances back over at the carousel - and there's our bags.
Once again, the computer system has no relation with reality. And Delta was about to add the expense of driving our bags to our home over an hour away by telling us that they hadn't arrived.

There you go with the cost thing again. Why are you so worried about cost when you want parked aircraft moved and extra ramp workers on the clock for your convenience. And the fact that your bags were on the carousel proves that you're an impatient person. Had you waited another couple of minutes you wouldn't have wasted the agent's time in the baggage office. That cost the airline money as well!

Two big things strike me here. First is that if you are desperately trying to cut costs, you get the computer systems perfect. Why? Because the cost of a competent programming team getting the software right pays for itself a million times over. But Delta has computer systems that are broken in fundamental ways. Even in a good economy this will guarantee that Delta's cost or 20% or more higher than their competitors.

The two biggest costs for an airline are fuel and labor. They do what they can with fuel costs (hedging, lower turn-around times) but when push comes to shove the easiest way to cut costs is to cut jobs. That's why morale is low and painting cute furry animals on the planes isn't going to fix it. Which brings us to...

The second thing is that the Delta employees just don't care anymore. They've given up and are putting nothing more than minimal effort into their job (clearly including their programmers). Not a single Delta employee we interacted with had any esprit-de-core.

Why should they care? They might not have a job in the near future. Most of them don't make a lot of money anyway. Passengers demand low fares and premium service. Yes, a smile is free but at the end of the day the average airline employee isn't going to go to extroadinary means to satisfy someone who probably can't be satisfied anyway.

Recessions are necessary to put companies like this out of business. This was a single trip but with a connecting flight both ways we saw and interacted with numerous employees and the Delta computer system multiple times at 3 airports. And it was consistently a mess.

When Delta goes out of business soon (and if they keep operating this way that is guaranteed to happen), it is rough on the employees there - but it is necessary because it is so horribly managed.

Delta isn't going out of business anytime soon. Merging Delta and Northwest will be a challenge but Delta has had challenges in the past. Most recently and just before the merger they emerged from bankruptcy. They addressed many cost management issues and were poised to be profitable in the long run.

[jimworcs]

You have the arrogant, anti-customer attitude that cause these problems. Your approach is clearly demonstrated in this last post. All of the problems identified are dismissed except one... you express outrage only where the first class customer is treated poorly. I wonder which class you fly in?

DavidThi:
You are right, recessions should weed out the weak and poorly managed companies... unfortunately, the US Government has an odd attitude towards its airlines. It protects them from competition, subsidises them (sometimes blatently, sometimes with hidden subsidies), allows them to abuse the bankruptcy process and Delta appears to be one of the worst of all. I had a nightmare experience with them over 10 years ago, and the same problems relating to the "computer says no" syndrome are still going on. The truth is management don't care.

PHX is being deliberately provocative in relation to the animals on the tails of the plane. The point you were making was that a company culture can affect the attitude of the employees. Southwest Airlines has lower unit costs than most, but has a company culture which promotes positive employee relationships and this is reflected in the significantly lower complaints rate on this website. I know nothing about Frontier, but if the animal painting is a public manifestation of a corporate culture which promotes pride in the quality of service, then this can certainly impact the customer experience.

[DavidThi]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

It's very possible that the 22 empty seats were a result of connecting passengers not arriving in time to make the flight. You said that there was only one agent boarding your flight so it's possible that he didn't realize until the last minute that there were misconnects which caused empty seats. At least they were able to fill most of them with standbys.

The problem is that the gate agent was telling people to give up and leave when they had not filled the plane. And it required the flight attendants to tell him that there were empty seats. I see no way to spin that as their computer system is working properly.

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

OK, let me get this straight. It is somehow the flight attendants job to make sure your underage daughter doesn't consume alcohol? While you are on the same plane? Sure, he didn't ask for proof of age, but your daughter accepted the drink! I agree that the flight attendant was in the wrong but so was your daughter and it seems to me that you take no responsibility for this matter either.

As we were 20 seats behind my daughters we had no way of knowing this was occuring. As to my daughter's responsibility, as she's 19 I figure if she gets a drink now and then I'm ok with that - when I was her age the drinking age was 18. The key issue here is that the airline has a legal obligation to not serve alcohol to minors.

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Why concern yourself with other people's problems? How do you know it wasn't an agent and a supervisor or another more experienced agent helping with a complex issue? It seems to me that with a 19 year old girl getting atnked on a plane you have problems enogh without concerning yourself with the problems of others.

If you don't understand why we should care about other people's problems, there is nothing I can say about this...

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Again, you accuse the airline of waising money but for a late night arrival you would have extra baggage handlers waiting around for your flight to arrive.

If they had just 2 people working it should not have taken an hour from landing for the first bags to pop up.

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

They don't scan the bags as they are loaded onto the plane so the computer would show the last place your bags were scanned while being sorted and sent for loading.

Then the Delta agent should not have declared that the bags missed the flight.

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Why should they care? They might not have a job in the near future. Most of them don't make a lot of money anyway. Passengers demand low fares and premium service. Yes, a smile is free but at the end of the day the average airline employee isn't going to go to extroadinary means to satisfy someone who probably can't be satisfied anyway.

By your logic Southwest & Frontier should be the worst airlines - yet they provide the best service.

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Delta isn't going out of business anytime soon. Merging Delta and Northwest will be a challenge but Delta has had challenges in the past. Most recently and just before the merger they emerged from bankruptcy. They addressed many cost management issues and were poised to be profitable in the long run.

I wouldn't buy stock in them...

[DavidThi]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

PHX is being deliberately provocative in relation to the animals on the tails of the plane. The point you were making was that a company culture can affect the attitude of the employees. Southwest Airlines has lower unit costs than most, but has a company culture which promotes positive employee relationships and this is reflected in the significantly lower complaints rate on this website. I know nothing about Frontier, but if the animal painting is a public manifestation of a corporate culture which promotes pride in the quality of service, then this can certainly impact the customer experience.

Exactly - thank you.

[AnsgarWilke]

DavidThi, you have a point here.
Delta airlines has really not the processes that one would expect from a major international airline.

I was flying often with Delta over the past years, but normally try now to use other carriers after too many bad experiences with Delta.

If Delta would go out of business, this would simply show that the market functions and inefficiently organized companies with often questionable customer service are replaced by efficiently organized companies with better customer service.

[Leatherboy2006]

With the current increasing unemployment rate and the fact that in bankrupcy Delta(like United, Northwest and USAirways) has dumped their pension plans on the American tax payer, do we really want that many employees unemployed? Those of us working have to pay for those unemployed through out taxes and that takes tax payers out of the equation.
As for your 19 year old drinking on the flight, so many kids now adays dress and look older, I agree with PHX flyer she should not have accepted. DavidThi, even said in a reply "if she gets a drink now and then I am ok with that" so you are supporting her breaking the laws and getting drunk. Working in the funeral industry do you know how many teens get buried a year cause they had "just a few underage drinks" and then drove?

[DavidThi]

Originally Posted by Leatherboy2006

With the current increasing unemployment rate and the fact that in bankrupcy Delta(like United, Northwest and USAirways) has dumped their pension plans on the American tax payer, do we really want that many employees unemployed? Those of us working have to pay for those unemployed through out taxes and that takes tax payers out of the equation.

I think we would pay more to keep Delta afloat than to pay unemployment. Plus most of those people will get jobs with the airline that replaces Delta.

Originally Posted by Leatherboy2006

As for your 19 year old drinking on the flight, so many kids now adays dress and look older, I agree with PHX flyer she should not have accepted. DavidThi, even said in a reply "if she gets a drink now and then I am ok with that" so you are supporting her breaking the laws and getting drunk. Working in the funeral industry do you know how many teens get buried a year cause they had "just a few underage drinks" and then drove?

When I was 18 that was the drinking age so I have mixed feelings about kids from 18 - 20 who drink. What I've tried to instill in my kids is you don't overdo it and you don't drink & drive. I find that a much more realistic approach. And based on reports from others, they have never gotten wasted and have never driven or gotten in a car with a driver who has had a drink.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by DavidThi

When I was 18 that was the drinking age so I have mixed feelings about kids from 18 - 20 who drink. What I've tried to instill in my kids is you don't overdo it and you don't drink & drive. I find that a much more realistic approach. And based on reports from others, they have never gotten wasted and have never driven or gotten in a car with a driver who has had a drink.

But as long as you don't overdo it it's okay to obtain and consume alcohol illegally?

[DavidThi]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

But as long as you don't overdo it it's okay to obtain and consume alcohol illegally?

I'd rather that my kids never touched alcohol, never were out late with their friends, and never engaged in pre-martial sex. I'd also like to see peace in the middle east.

Since I'm not going to lock my kids up, I try to teach them to use their judgement and keep open communication, both so they listen to me and so they will call me if they need help.

So yes, like most parents of teens we go for the possible. And because of that my daughters do discuss serious problems they face with us.

[Suga00]

Complaints against any airline is going to happen, yours are not excusable and should be addressed, however making such a statement that the company should go out of business because of the few bad apples is just sad and ignorant.
Delta employs thousands of people from IT to Check-in, flight crews, baggage handlers, mechanics, thousands of people, and to make a generalized statement "Delta employees just don't care anymore." have you met all of them? Maybe the few you have come across don't but that doesn't mean the rest don't care.
There will always be bad apples, unhappy employees and maybe delta should fire those who don't do their job but the amount of people that would have to come home to their families and say "I lost my job today" no airline would be able to hire them all, with the economy in the state that it is in where will these people go?
Delta is not the only airline with issues and as a former delta employee I would hate to see so many people, hard working people, not being able to keep their homes, feed their children or finish school because of complaints that could be addressed and fixed for future travel.
Don't wish on others what you wouldn't want for yourself.

P.S. There is no talk of airline bailouts, where have you been getting this from?

[jimworcs]

Re: Going out of business

As harsh at it might seem, it will require a major to go to the wall, for the rest of the industry to get their house in order. There is a direct analogy with the excesses of the banking industry here. Suddenly, regulators are taking a close interest in the excesses, with gross salaries and bonuses paid to the few at the expense of the many and frankly corporate cultures which were abusive to customers. The banks believed they were untouchable, and although many have been bailed out, some big names failed and this is a salutory lesson to the others.

I think the same will have to happen with some of the airlines. My vote would be for Delta. They have abused their monopoly and are abusive towards their customers and staff. Although there will be considerable pain in such a restructuring, in the long run the health of the industry is at stake. US airlines are frequently unprofitable and have an unhealthy attitude towards their own staff and customers. They are protected beyond reason and are very much in the same mould as the banks and the US auto industry. Unless a major is allowed to fail, this abuse will continue.

re: Underage drinking. I am afraid that David has a healthier attitude to alcohol consumption by his 18 - 20 year old daughters than PHX or Leatherboy. The evidence is that countries which take a prohibition stance towards alcohol use (such as Northern European countries which seek to control alcohol though very high taxation and strict regulation and the US which uses prohibition for 18-20 year olds) have a significantly greater problem with excessive consumption and binge drinking. Those societies which take a more relaxed attitude, such as the "cafe culture" countries (Spain, Italy and France for example) often introduce alcohol at a much earlier age (wine with a meal from the age of 12 for example) and have significantly less social problems as a result and certainly much lower rates of binge drinking.

It is curious anomoly that in the US, a man of 18 can go and fight in a bloody war in defence of his country, but at the end of that bloody fight the law says he is too immature to have a beer with his fellow soldiers. Nontheless, that is the law, and whilst the David's daughters might be wrong to have ordered the drink, it is incumbant upon the seller (ie the Airline in this case) and a condition of their licence to ensure that the recipient is the right age. Bars have lost their liquor licence for failing to adhere to this rule.. so why should airlines be any different?

[DavidThi]

Originally Posted by Suga00

Complaints against any airline is going to happen, yours are not excusable and should be addressed, however making such a statement that the company should go out of business because of the few bad apples is just sad and ignorant.

My reason for this is not the issues that can be laid to a bad apple (or in our case 13 bad apples out of 13 total employees) but rather the systemic problems as seen in their broken computer systems, etc.

Originally Posted by Suga00

There will always be bad apples, unhappy employees and maybe delta should fire those who don't do their job but the amount of people that would have to come home to their families and say "I lost my job today" no airline would be able to hire them all, with the economy in the state that it is in where will these people go?

As someone who has been laid off - it sucks. But the alternative is to keep inefficient companies in business and that is an even worse solution.

[DavidThi]

First off, thank you for your realistic view of teen drinking. I've also found that the worst teen drinkers tend to be the ones with parents who are trying to totally control them.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

...and whilst the David's daughters might be wrong to have ordered the drink, it is incumbant upon the seller (ie the Airline in this case) and a condition of their licence to ensure that the recipient is the right age. Bars have lost their liquor licence for failing to adhere to this rule.. so why should airlines be any different?

I may have not been clear - my daughters did not order any drinks. The steward offered them, for free. They merely accepted them. And when he asked my 19 year old if she was out of college she answered no. I think if he asked her how old she was she would have answered honestly - she's willing to accept a drink, but she does not lie.

[airhead]

In 2005, Delta filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. No telling how much that already costed the tax payer. I imagine billions of dollars. What happened to out great nation and the idea of capitolism? If a company can't keep up with their books, why should the People bail them out? Seems to me that the U.S. government is rewarding bad behavour, much like the free loaders who take advantage of our welare system. I am not saying everyone does it but we all know that their are those out there who do it. I am begining to hate the word "bailout."

[jimworcs]

Suga00.. the company should go out of business because it was bankrupt, didn't meet its obligations, is abusive to its passengers and staff and operates against the public interest. Why is it that for some industries we suddenly decide to take up socialist positions in which certain protected companies are entitled to special protection, because they happen to have some good employees. I am sure Bear Stearns had some good employees. Should it have been bailed out? I am afraid Delta is irredeemably corrupt and should be allowed to go to the wall.

We should also implement two other rules. No airline can enter Chapter 11 more than once in 25 years, and any airline which does go into Chapter 11 must sack the Senior Management Team and the Chairman of the Board of Directors before they can emerge. Also, the pay and bonuses contracts of the Senior Managers should be declared invalid if the airline enters Chapter 11, so no payments will be made.

[john116]

Chill people. You americans (mostly) are so uptight. It's a flight. Be thankful you arrived in one piece.

J

[ldl007]

Mr. DavidThi:
1. You are mixing your personal complaints with your observations and perceived irregularities to suggest Delta should "go.".
2. There are too many adjectives in your letter that reflects your annoyance at Delta rather than things that were directly of your concern/discomfort. What has the two first class passengers, "boatload" of seats etc. got to do with your complaint?
3. It is hard for me to believe that Delta mixed Margaritas to give to your daughters. Most often they don't give even if you ask! You don't fault your daughters for aceepting an alcoholic drink even if it was offered free? What were you doing when all this drinking conversation happened? You could have told the Flight attendant to leave your daughters alone.
4. Other airlines are no better. If all the Airlines disappear, perhaps we will all be taking Greyhound with no flight attendants.
5. I don't work for any airlines or travel industry but, some times, it is easier to let go rather than trying to find fault with anything and everything that you see. You were in a bad mood and everything seemed Delta's fault. Just relax and enjoy your next flight. I was like you until a couple of years back. Then I realized that it was futile to get upset about things overwhich you don't have any control. Exercise your rights but don't generalize-the "flight attendant counting 22 boatload of empty seats and passengers and stand-bys were asked to go" sound absurd.

[jupatamx]

Iam an Airline employee and must tell you don't have to justify your 19 year old daughter drinking. She is a kid and does not know better. However the Flight ATT. Is overage and is being paid to know better. Completly the airlines fault.

[positivespace]

DavidThi:
First of all, let's get your facts straight. No airline is looking to Washington for a "bail out". Certainly not Delta. Delta will not be out of business anytime soon. They are actually one of 4 airlines that have showed a profit in tha past 2 years. Oh and to your surprise Southwest is not one of those airlines. The only reason Southwest's morale is so high is because their employees are the highest paid in the industry. I would be pretty damn happy if I was making 5-10 dollars an hour more than I am right now too.

To touch on the seat assignment issue, did you book your ticket on Delta.com or 1800-221-1212? Or did you book it through a cheap website as in Expedia.com or CheapTickets.com? If you booked it through an outside source it is simply a seat "request". A person that books that same flight on Delta.com gets the seat before you would. Another possibilty is that the equipment was changed as stated before.

The overbooking of flights is something every airline does. The no-show factor is a huge decision maker in how many the flight will be overbooked by. It is not unusual to see a flight out of Atlanta overbooked in the 20s. This is due to the fact that there are people connecting to that flight from all over the world. What are the chances that all of those people are going to make their original flight or be on time? Very slim. Also their are at least 5 rows of passengers that do not get seat assignments on every flight. Delta blocks 5 rows of seats on every flight for the gate agent at the departing gate to use to try to accomodate passengers with disabilities and families traveling together. So therefore there are 20-40 passengers that must get their seats assigned at the gate.

The agent in Atlanta being rude to the passengers especially First Class ones is completely unacceptable. I wish I could apologize for all airline employees world wide but that is just not going to happen. Some employees just need an atitude adjustment. If this ever happens to you again, get the agents name and write a letter to the airline on the airlines website. Employees do get punished for acts like this.

The flight attendant giving alcoholic drinks to your 19 year old daughter is also unacceptable. I have been carded on a flight before and the flight attendant should have done the same in this situation. If it is policy to card anyone that looks younger than 30 on the ground then it should be the same in the air. I'm not gonna be one of those people that blames you as a parent, your daughter is 19, she knows what is wrong and what is right, and at least you remember what it is like to be a teenager.

About your baggage. At 1130 at night I know for a fact that there is a skeleton crew working at any airport. I know it was an inconvienence to you and the other passengers to wait so long for your baggage, but it takes quite some time to unload an airplane especially if you only have a few employees working. Also I don't know how it is in Denver but I know at the airport I work at, the gates where the planes is at is 1/2 mile from where the bags are dropped to the passengers. When driving a bag tractor that has a top speed of 15mph this takes a few minutes. Delta is also improving it's baggage system as we speak. They are beginning to try to scan every bag when it is checked in, when it is put in a cart to go to a plane, when it is put on the plane, taken off the plane, put back on another plane, and taken off agian. So hopefully this releives some baggage errors. Although there is always going to be human error in this process.

I hope I answered some of the questions you had during your trip. I do apologize that some employees can make it a horrible experience to fly.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

(from jimworcs)

a man of 18 can go and fight in a bloody war in defence of his country, but at the end of that bloody fight the law says he is too immature to have a beer with his fellow soldiers.

After the completely valid moral argument has been considered there remains the reality that when drinking was permitted at age 18 more traffic deaths were the result. Accordingly the Federal government threatened to withhold highway funds from any state which did not roll its drinking age back to 21.

(from positivespace)

If this ever happens to you again, get the agents name and write a letter to the airline on the airlines website. Employees do get punished for acts like this.

In theory your point is well taken. In practice: What is one supposed to do when the act of asking for a staff member's name--in a normal conversational tone--is responded to with a call to the police? There will be those on here who will swear I'm imagining this; that such a situation never happens; that I've defiled motherhood and apple pie by saying less than nice things about a US-based airline, and there's even a question about my "mental status."

As to employees who may, or may not, get punished: Given the number of ill mannered airline staff, as evidenced by the posts on this board, one wonders if dirty shoes (I mentioned in a previous post) are a much higher priority, in the eyes of airline management, than staff with a major attitude problem.

[Jetliner]

This thread has strayed wayyyy off coarse, and it shouldn't even be here, as the original post has one basic fact that is absolutely FALSE:

Originally Posted by DavidThi

We are now hearing talk about some of the airlines coming to Washington next with their hand out and their tale of woe.

There is not ONE SINGLE airline asking for a bailout. In fact there have been no talks of airline bailouts since the 9/11 bailouts. And let's just get rid of another false thing about those - often times when people post on the internet about those, they say that the airlines keep getting bailouts. WRONG.

[airhead]

The airlines are not getting bailouts but are receiving regular payments to stay in operation.