[cl1982]

Wow!!!
Well, I do not even know where to begin with this airline!
My family and I booked a Christmas cruise vacation and had to fly from Southern California to New Orleans.
We booked our flight three months in advance, arrived at the airport two and a half hours early for the flight, checked in and were told that the flight was on time and everything should be smooth sailing from there on...

The boarding time for our flight came and went, 15 minutes later, the gate agents announced that our flight would be delayed twenty minutes. No big deal we thought, as we had 45 minutes to make our connection.

After 45 minutes had passed, they announced that the flight would be delayed another hour! Now, there would be no way for us to make our connection in Houston.
We were rebooked on a new connecting flight and were reassured that we would make this flight with time to spare. When we asked why the flight was delayed, because the plane had landed 2 hours earlier, we were told that the pilot saw frost on the wings and was uncomfortable taking off until the frost had melted.
We asked what measures were being taken to melt the frost, and the agents told us that there is no equpiment to melt frost, they have to wait for the sun to melt it!!!!!
During this time we saw many other planes in our terminal pull on to the runway, actually facing the sun, and they took off within 15 minutes of that time! But no, our pilot kept our plane in the shade for three and a half hours after the flight was supposed to leave!!!!!!!
Finally, we made it to Houston, we had 6 minutes to make the connecting flight and when we asked if the gate agent could call the connecting gate and let them know we were on our way, he said " I could call, but it would not make any difference...you should just run fast!"
We got to the gate two minutes after the flight had left...
Customer service rebooked us again...this is now making this our 4th connecting flight...meanwhile we had called our cruise company several times, asking when the absolute latest we could be on the ship, we were told that we had two hours to make it on the ship or the crusie would leave without us!
We made this connecting flight, had to pay double to get a car to take us SUPER FAST...but we made it on our cruise, and we will NEVER fly Continental again!!!!!!!!

[PHXFlyer]

I'm not going to second guess the captain of the aircraft you were flying on. Ultimately it's his or her decision to fly and if I were putting my life in his or her hands I would feel good about the decision he or she made no matter what. Maybe you didn't think a bit of "frost" on the wings was a big deal but in his or her experience and training he/she made the call to delay until the problem cleared.

I have been on several cruises and have heard stories like this before. I am glad you made your cruise however unless you live in the city where the ship is departing from you should NEVER book travel to meet a cruise on the same day as the ship's departure. You should always book travel at least the day before and get a hotel room either near the airport or the port where the ship is departing from.

[countrynewsman]

I wouldn't second guess the captain as well. I am making an assumption that you left from Ontario rather then LAX. Frost on the wings would make more sense in Ontario. As to having de-icing equipment...it would probably sit around unused. I haven't seen too many ice or snow storms in that area.
My wife and I are travelling to Ontario this month on...EGADS...Continental (already booked the flight a couple of months ago...before the latest fiasco), but we are arriving three days in advance of the cruise. We have family/friends there and can visit them. Plus...we won't be taking a chance on a delay.

[PHXFlyer]

There were many complaints on FlyerTalk.com about the recent winter weather delays in IAH and LAS. No de-icing facilities at either airport and no snow removal equipment at all in LAS. But these are a once in a decade occurance so your assumption that it just isn't cost effective is right on the mark. I challenge anyone to go into a Lowe's or Home Depot in either Houston or Las Vegas and be buy a snow blower without special ordering it. Just isn't gonna happen.

My wife and I are travelling to Ontario this month on...EGADS...Continental (already booked the flight a couple of months ago...before the latest fiasco), but we are arriving three days in advance of the cruise. We have family/friends there and can visit them. Plus...we won't be taking a chance on a delay.

Are you speaking of the incident in DEN on 12/20? There have been no determinations whatsoever on the cause of that. Most airline accidents are usually attributed to a "perfect storm" of contributing factors. It may have been the gusty cross-winds that night, debris on the runway, a mechanical failure of the aircraft (the 737-500 has had recent problems), pilot error, or a combination of any of the above. What matters is that in this case there was a successful evacuation and no loss of life.

You are very smart to be traveling a few days prior to your cruise. There are so many travel "horroer stories" from people who fly from the west coast the morning their cruise is scheduled to depart from Miami or from the east coast to LAX, SEA or SAN. I always tell friends and family booking cruises to fly at least the day before and book a hotel.

[countrynewsman]

No, not referring to the DEN incident. I'm referring to another thread I started about Continental not living up to their COC.

[PHXFlyer]

Ah yes. That was the Colgan DBA Continental Conection. I posted on that thread. Feel free to contact me if you need further assistance in that matter.

[Leatherboy2006]

I have two words and one number about waiting for frost/snow to be de-iced or melted off winds.....AIR FLORIDA 90.
Also didn't the American Eagle plane crash back in the 1990's in Indiana due to ice build up on wings?

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

An ice-related crash, immortalized in song--"The Day The Music Died"--involved a small charter prop aircraft carrying Buddy Holly and Richie Valenz. This occured in the late 1950s. To my understanding, the dangers of flying with ice on the wings was not known at the time. A, slightly, more recent tragedy (still, 20 years ago) involved another charter flight carrying servicemen from Europe. An Arrow Air plane crashed near Halifax, Canada because of icing conditions.

[Corbel]

Originally Posted by cl1982

Wow!!!
Well, I do not even know where to begin with this airline!
My family and I booked a Christmas cruise vacation and had to fly from Southern California to New Orleans.
We booked our flight three months in advance, arrived at the airport two and a half hours early for the flight, checked in and were told that the flight was on time and everything should be smooth sailing from there on...

The boarding time for our flight came and went, 15 minutes later, the gate agents announced that our flight would be delayed twenty minutes. No big deal we thought, as we had 45 minutes to make our connection.

After 45 minutes had passed, they announced that the flight would be delayed another hour! Now, there would be no way for us to make our connection in Houston.
We were rebooked on a new connecting flight and were reassured that we would make this flight with time to spare. When we asked why the flight was delayed, because the plane had landed 2 hours earlier, we were told that the pilot saw frost on the wings and was uncomfortable taking off until the frost had melted.
We asked what measures were being taken to melt the frost, and the agents told us that there is no equpiment to melt frost, they have to wait for the sun to melt it!!!!!
During this time we saw many other planes in our terminal pull on to the runway, actually facing the sun, and they took off within 15 minutes of that time! But no, our pilot kept our plane in the shade for three and a half hours after the flight was supposed to leave!!!!!!!
Finally, we made it to Houston, we had 6 minutes to make the connecting flight and when we asked if the gate agent could call the connecting gate and let them know we were on our way, he said " I could call, but it would not make any difference...you should just run fast!"
We got to the gate two minutes after the flight had left...
Customer service rebooked us again...this is now making this our 4th connecting flight...meanwhile we had called our cruise company several times, asking when the absolute latest we could be on the ship, we were told that we had two hours to make it on the ship or the crusie would leave without us!
We made this connecting flight, had to pay double to get a car to take us SUPER FAST...but we made it on our cruise, and we will NEVER fly Continental again!!!!!!!!

so this guy is basically bitching because the captain made a decision that was based on getting THIS passenger to his destination safely, and all he wants to do is complain about it??? sad

[jimworcs]

Icing on the wing is a very serious issue and there have been many hull losses and substantial fatalities as a result. When I am flying, I want the Captain to prioritise safety over all other considerations and this is what he did. What motive do you think the Captain had other than safety? Why would he deliberately delay a flight for bogus reasons? Airlines often lie to customers, but in this case, I can't see any reason why they would do so. The aircraft was available, serviceable and ready. If it was capable of flying, I am sure he would have done so.

[countrynewsman]

We were on a United flight some years ago that was delayed in Kansas City so the wings could be de-iced. When we got near the runway for takeoff, the first officer came back and visually checked the wings from the window to make sure all was well. That is what I like to see...a crew double checking to make sure we were safe. Again, I would not second guess the captain of that Continental flight. I'm sure he did what he thought was prudent.

[rnagel]

I am a pilot and I can tell you that frost can be just as bad as ice on a wing. The frost will kill the lift by creating thousands of small vortices in the air as it passes over the wing. You wouldn't think so from looking at it but it will.
Ice, on the other hand, changes the aerodynamics of the wing in unpredictable ways and can cause the wing to stall with really bad results.

[ChrisH]

I am not going to go into how Continental handled the rebooking of you, but with regards to frost on the wings ... I am a pilot, and it is extremely dangerous when frost, or ice forms on the wings. It can disrupt the airflow over the wings, and prevent the airplane from getting airborne. There have been numerous major, fatal crashes due to airplanes taking off, with frost/ice on the wings, and either could never get off the runway, or didn't get too high, before they came crashing down. It is VERY dangerous, and as a result of these past accidents, there are strict policies regarding the de-icing of aircraft, before they can depart.

[ChrisH]

In addition, let me say.

I know it was nerve racking not knowing whether you'd make the cruise, but at least you did. At least you are here, and able to talk about it. At least your family is not logging onto this site, to discuss how they lost their family member(s), over Christmas, because a Continental captain decided to takeoff, with ice/frost on the wings.

As per some of you mentioning past accidents. A more recent one (1992), was the crash of a USAir 737, at New York's LaGuardia airport.

"On March 22, 1992, USAir Flight 405 bound for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport in Cleveland, Ohio, crashed on takeoff at LaGuardia due to icing on its wings. Of 51 people aboard, 27 were killed."

As per why the Continental captain didn't go taxi into the sun, and allow the ice to melt, and takeoff, as some other airplane did. Well, in the above accident, of the USAir flight, they had actually been deiced, using equipment, which sprays deicing fluid on the wings, etc. During an extended taxi, to takeoff, ice reformed, on the wings, resulting in the crash. For some pilots, waiting for the sun to fully come up, and the temperature to rise a bit, is what they feel more comfortable doing, rather than risk reformation of ice, while taxiing to takeoff, or taking off.

Personally, although you may not see it this way, I would commend Continental for taking safety first, whether you realize how dangerous ice/frost is, or not. Trust me, it isn't anything to play around with, not when you will have hundreds of lives on the airplane.

[countrynewsman]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

During an extended taxi, to takeoff, ice reformed, on the wings, resulting in the crash. For some pilots, waiting for the sun to fully come up, and the temperature to rise a bit, is what they feel more comfortable doing, rather than risk reformation of ice, while taxiing to takeoff, or taking off.

Which is why I was glad the United First Officer came back to the cabin before takeoff to visually check the wings after it was de-iced at the gate.

As far as safety is concerned, flying is still the most comfortable for me. It seems that when one little thing happens, it makes the news. Two days ago, an American Eagle flight reported a smoky haze in the cockpit. They landed in Killeen (scheduled airport) safely. The haze cleared before landing. How do I know this? It made the front page of the Killeen Daily Herald! Geez.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by countrynewsman

Which is why I was glad the United First Officer came back to the cabin before takeoff to visually check the wings after it was de-iced at the gate.

As far as safety is concerned, flying is still the most comfortable for me. It seems that when one little thing happens, it makes the news. Two days ago, an American Eagle flight reported a smoky haze in the cockpit. They landed in Killeen (scheduled airport) safely. The haze cleared before landing. How do I know this? It made the front page of the Killeen Daily Herald! Geez.

Kudos to that FO, for double-checking the wings. I can assure you, anytime a flight is delayed, due to the crew delaying it, for maintenance, or some other reason, it is for safety. Flight crews have no ulterior motive to delay a flight. Many people do not realize this, but flight crews only get paid, when the airplane is flying. They don't get paid to sit around and wait for ice to melt, or for maintenance. They are just as eager to get the flight out, and completed, as are the passengers. Pilots have to go through much training, and their license/certificates are on the line, everyday that they fly. Safety is #1 priority. Also, you never know what one of the pilots may have experienced in the past. Maybe this Continental pilot had a scary icing issue in the past, and as a result, he now plays it safe, even while other airplanes choose to go, ultimately taking a risk. If you are about to operate a multi-million dollar piece of equipment, that will have your life, and potentially hundreds of others, it would seem responsible to make sure that it can be done safely, with no question marks.

Flying is very safe, and it is unfortunate that the media overplays some incidents. However, all it takes is one thing to be overlooked, or one pilot to take a risk, small, or large, and the newspaper headline want be a happy ending. It may be frustrating, but I never get angry, when I fly, and a flight is delayed due to something can effects the safety of flight, whether it be maintenance, ice, or other issues. I'd rather be on the ground, wishing I was in the air, on my way to my destination, than in the air, wishing I was on the ground.

The airlines may not always handle things the way they should, from a customer service aspect, but delays are often for safety, and I wish people would realize that.