[DRHHUB]

I know this drives regular members crazy, but I don't have flight numbers or times. This is just a general question about operations. I was on a flight last year Chicago O'Hare to Knoxville. Weather from the east was terrible. Inbound flights were getting delayed/canceled. I was stuck in O'Hare for an eight hour delay before my flight was canceled.

Here's my rub. On two different occasions, we were told that our flight # to Knoxville had arrived and we would be boarding as soon as the plane was serviced, but the gate # had changed. We would go to the new gate. Passengers were coming out of the gate. We knew there was a plane there ready to fly. Then, we would be told that our flight was delayed. Then, to really get us steaming, they would call another flight to start boarding onto the plane that was supposed to be taking us to Knoxville.

There were only about 20 people on our flight. Am I wrong to assume that someone made the decision to give "my" plane to a flight with more passengers? That's what I was thinking. I don't have a problem with that from a business standpoint. Better to disappoint 20 passengers as 60.

My questions:

1) Who makes the decision on which flights go? I know ATC has final say as to who lands and takes off. But, does ATC say "United to Knoxville" can fly, or do they say "United can have one flight"?

2) Why page customers to the gate and get their hopes up only to "delay" them again?

3) If I was on the last flight out to Knoxville and beat the first flight there the next morning, how did my bags get there before I did?

My buddy and I decided to drive home instead of waiting for the next mornings flight that was not guaranteed (standy). Our bags beat us to the airport. I will say United was pretty good to us. They refunded the unused portion of the flight (without a fight) and sent me 2 - $100 vouchers which I never used.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by DRHHUB

I know this drives regular members crazy, but I don't have flight numbers or times. This is just a general question about operations. I was on a flight last year Chicago O'Hare to Knoxville. Weather from the east was terrible. Inbound flights were getting delayed/canceled. I was stuck in O'Hare for an eight hour delay before my flight was canceled.

Here's my rub. On two different occasions, we were told that our flight # to Knoxville had arrived and we would be boarding as soon as the plane was serviced, but the gate # had changed. We would go to the new gate. Passengers were coming out of the gate. We knew there was a plane there ready to fly. Then, we would be told that our flight was delayed. Then, to really get us steaming, they would call another flight to start boarding onto the plane that was supposed to be taking us to Knoxville.

There were only about 20 people on our flight. Am I wrong to assume that someone made the decision to give "my" plane to a flight with more passengers? That's what I was thinking. I don't have a problem with that from a business standpoint. Better to disappoint 20 passengers as 60.

My questions:

1) Who makes the decision on which flights go? I know ATC has final say as to who lands and takes off. But, does ATC say "United to Knoxville" can fly, or do they say "United can have one flight"?

ATC dictates how many takeoffs/landings can occur at an airport. If that number is less than what was planned for a particular airline it is then up to each airline's OPS department to decide which flights go and which are canceled.

2) Why page customers to the gate and get their hopes up only to "delay" them again?

It often is an ever changing situation when weather is involved. Sometimes a flight that looks like it will go will end up being delayed or canceled as the situation progresses. ATC tells the airline what to expect as far as how many slots will be cut due to weather. The airline then makes the final decision as to go or no-go.

3) If I was on the last flight out to Knoxville and beat the first flight there the next morning, how did my bags get there before I did?

Sometimes if a flight is canceled another plane can carry the bags from both. Not everyone checks bags so if there are 200 people flying to a destination and only 50 have checked bags your bag may make it on an earlier flight even if you don't.

My buddy and I decided to drive home instead of waiting for the next mornings flight that was not guaranteed (standy). Our bags beat us to the airport. I will say United was pretty good to us. They refunded the unused portion of the flight (without a fight) and sent me 2 - $100 vouchers which I never used.[/quote]

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by DRHHUB

Then, to really get us steaming, they would call another flight to start boarding onto the plane that was supposed to be taking us to Knoxville.

But if the weather is that bad in Knoxville, they still have a plane sitting on the gate. The gate will need to be used. Also, the flight that got called instead - their plane inbound may have been delayed. Why hold them up for a plane that won't arrive for a couple hours when you have a plane sitting right there, that can not take it's original flight anymore?

[DRHHUB]

Knoxville wasn't the problem that day. I believe it was getting flights into Chicago coming from the Northeast and Midwest. Knoxville actually didn't receive the bad weather until the next day right after we got home.

Funny part of the story - we drove all night from Chicago to Knoxville and drove into the airport to return the rental and pickup luggage just as the plane was landing that we would have been on had we waited. But, when we made the decision to drive, we weren't guaranteed to be on that flight. I guess patience is a virtue that we didn't have that day!

[Jetliner]

Originally Posted by DRHHUB

I was on a flight last year Chicago O'Hare to Knoxville. Weather from the east was terrible.

Knoxville being east of Chicago (well southeast, but more east than where you were), I thought you meant Knoxville was included in the bad weather. The question then would be why did they tell you the flight was delayed?

There's a world of reasons why you would get delayed in that case. It all could still be weather related. What airline was this, and by that I don't just mean United or American, I mean were you on a regular airline, or one of the commuter connections? If it was a commuter, as I suspect going to Knoxville would be from O'hare, then it could have been an issue of winds, or visibility. Either could be a problem with storms around or on the way. The other half of this is the airport itself. Things like runway length and landing systems.

Another thing to consider is if there were bad storms in the area (even if not over Knoxville at the time) what was happening in Atlanta? ATL is pretty close flight wise to Knoxville. If things were bad there, the air space may have been congested, and air traffic control may have put a hold on your flight. The same could have happened in Chicago. With all the delays inbound the Chicago controllers may have held departing flights due to too many airplanes flying.

You have to consider that Chicago and Atlanta are the two busiest airports in the world. That's going to include the air space around them. When you get storms in the area, they have to start spacing planes apart. That can cause backups.

[DRHHUB]

Sorry about the confusion. If its below the Mason-Dixon, I just say south. East to me is where all those terrible yankees live.

I was on United with one of the small regional/commuter jets. This happened over a year ago in this instance, and I've had 2 other instances since that time where the same thing happened. I wasn't then, and am not now, mad about the flight delays or cancellations. I understand the reasons, and I understand about the spacing.

The only thing that irritated me was that you'd get your hopes up when they posted you flight or made announcements that our plane had landed and would be departing soon. Then, they would turn around and delay it again.

I am probably in the minority on this as evidence by all the people fussing, cussing, and screaming at the gate agents, but I would rather the flight just show delayed until the airline is 100% sure that my flight is leaving and then announce that they are ready to start boarding.

[DRHHUB]

Sorry, Jetliner, I didn't answer one of your questions about the delay. On my flight I never heard them actually say the reason for the delay. They may have and I just didn't hear it. But, I never heard a reason for our flight being delayed.

[Jetliner]

Generally in those cases it's air traffic control causing the delay, and pushing it back. I've seen plenty of cases where we would get the passengers boarded or were in the boarding process when the tower calls and tells the flight that they are delayed. Sounds like the case here. They give the flight a time, but something changes (probably further backups) and they delay the flight further.

[pattis]

Originally Posted by DRHHUB

Sorry about the confusion. If its below the Mason-Dixon, I just say south. East to me is where all those terrible yankees live.

I was on United with one of the small regional/commuter jets. This happened over a year ago in this instance, and I've had 2 other instances since that time where the same thing happened. I wasn't then, and am not now, mad about the flight delays or cancellations. I understand the reasons, and I understand about the spacing.

The only thing that irritated me was that you'd get your hopes up when they posted you flight or made announcements that our plane had landed and would be departing soon. Then, they would turn around and delay it again.

I am probably in the minority on this as evidence by all the people fussing, cussing, and screaming at the gate agents, but I would rather the flight just show delayed until the airline is 100% sure that my flight is leaving and then announce that they are ready to start boarding.

I certainly understand your frustation in a situation like this. And it would be much better for all involved customers and agents if things were to run this smoothly. Alot of times the higher ups make decisions that seem to make no sense. But as with most any situation (not necessarily airline) the people that make the rules are not the ones that play the game. Easy enough for someone sitting behind a desk to cancel/change..etc. something that will inconvienience many people if they are not the one dealing with the customers or not the customer themselves.

[DRHHUB]

That makes sense. At least it's the most logical explanation anyone has been able to give me to this date. Life would be grand if there was some way to get these kinds of answers when the stuff is actually happening, but then again I guess the gate agents barely have time to get people on the planes during these times so they can't explain that to every passenger.

[pattis]

As an airline employee I thank you for being understanding....here is a recap of a terrible situation from Jan. I work in a small airport. At the time this happened we had 3 flights a day. First one at 6:30 am canceled due to plane not arriving previous night due to bad weather. Flight 2 due to depart at 8:00am was posted online as a 2:00pm departure due to heavy snow. This was to include passengers from the first flight. However, the weather started to improve, so they moved it up to 11:00am. dept. (keep in mind pass. had already checked online and most were reebooked for connections and planned to show up for 2pm departure). We could see this was a disaster in the making. Due to the fact we had approx20 people there only and were booked to about 75. I called dispatch and asked the to hold the flight for at least an hour so as that anyone checking the online time might see it and be able to make it to the airport. They said no. The captain called crew scheduling after we discussed it and he also tryed to get them to further hold it. Finally dispatch called back and chewed me a new you-know-what. Said get that plane boarded and out of there or we will cancel it. Long story short, plane left....you can only imagine the line of 50+ people that showed up to find out plane had 3 hours earlier. There was flight 3 at 1:30 but that was already oversold. 4 other airlines here had no seats either available , most people had to wait 2-3 days. Sad. I had even asked dispatch if they could possibly send a larger A/C for afternoon flight...no luck.

Any way this is a prime example of Cluster... Also, a day I would not want to relive. Surprisingly most people were pretty nice about it. Upset, yes but saw that we were honestly trying to help them. Maybe that makes a difference.
So yes, sometimes the airport crews cannot make sense out of why they do things the way they do, we just have to play the game too.

[jimworcs]

This is an example of what I have written about in other texts. The defence of the schedulers will be that the "knock on effect" would have affected many more people. But to have delayed an already very late flight, by an extra hour or two would have been the right thing to do. Sadly, airlines rarely care about doing the right thing. It is not always the front line staff to blame, as in this case, and many times they go above and beyond to try to make it right. However, from the passenger perspective, they are the only representative of the company they have to express their anger, frustration and resentment at. It is time for change.

[DRHHUB]

Unfortunately, for the employees that is true; however, that shouldn't make it open season on gate agents. I'm not trying to put words in jim's mouth, and I know he didn't say that, but that's what quiet a few people do when things don't go their way. Some people think cursing, screaming, and throwing temper tantrums will get them what they want. To put it bluntly, that's blatantly stupid. Why would you scream and berate the only person(s) that are capable of helping you? Doesn't make sense to me!

I watched a lady get hauled off by the police because she wanted to pitch a fit. Her solution was that she was going to scream and stand in front of the desk until she got satisfaction. While she was doing this, no one else was getting help. They asked her to move and refused. Well, the police moved her, and rightfully so.

In the Cincinnati airport once, I went and bought the gate agent a drink while she worked on my ticket. When I got back with her drink, she had me rerouted to my destination. Did she do this because I bought her a drink? Probably not, did it make her want to help me a little more? Maybe so. I know I was one of only three people in that line that wasn't being pushy and a little testy.

But, jim is right. It is time for change. Think about this - how bad is the airline industry that people thing getting the government involved is a good idea? How bad do you have to be for people to believe that the federal government can make it run better?

[DRHHUB]

By that do you mean what happens on down the line at the other airports when a flight doesn't leave on time?

[jimworcs]

The truth is that communication is the key to nearly all jobs which involve public interaction. Ground staff have a particularly difficult job, because normally customer service agents work one to one with a customer, so even if one is very irate they have the chance at least to communicate what they need to say. Ground staff at airports are often dealing with hundreds of angry passengers all at the same time, and they can develop an almost mob mentality. However, this is greatly compounded by the habitual focus of airlines on reducing their costs regardless of the cost to their customers. For example, consolidating flights to get a schedule back on track, even if that might strand dozens of passengers for days at a time. When they do this, they are often highly dishonest about why such decisions were made and they often lie to their passengers. They are only able to do this because they essentially operate as monopolies, but they have a fig leaf of competition. They have driven standards down collectively so low, there is little to distinguish the majors from each other. In truth, some are worse than others, but few have a distinct culture (Southwest is probably an honourable exception in the US for example). Therefore, passengers cannot exercise the normal market constraints on the airlines. This is why I advocate stronger regulation. I do not, by the way, advocate Federal Government intervention, other than in regulating the industry more effectively. I also would argue that they should open the market to foreign owned companies, just as many markets other markets are open to them.