[Heathernicoleb]

Continental Airlines recently lost a bag of mine filled with irreplaceable possessions. This bag was a carry-on bag –not a checked bag, a carry-on –and was moved without my knowledge or permission from the overhead bin. No one has seen the bag since.

This took place on my way to Rhode Island to attend the graduation ceremonies for members of the Initiative to Educate Afghan Women. The First Lady, Mrs. Bush, was scheduled to be there and so, due to the nature of the events, I had packed some good clothes and jewelry and decided to take everything in one carry-on. A flight attendant helped me*place my suitcase in the overhead bin a few rows away from my seat
as the bin above me was taken.

After the plane was taxiing down the runway, I was informed that the Continental staff had moved my bag -- supposedly to the lower storage area of the plane. In order to find out whose bag it was, the Continental staff had gone into my suitcase and, from my purse, they*got my return ticket and my name! Yet they did not have enough sense to at least give me my purse or to see if I needed anything (such as my medication) or wanted
anything (such as my jewelry) from the bag. Although they knew from my ticket that I had a connecting flight in New Jersey, they still didn't gate check my bag, which would have allowed me to retrieve it upon exiting the plane at Newark to make my connection to Providence. Instead, they told me that they had checked it all the way through to Providence and handed me a handwritten number. Unsurprisingly, the bag vanished, along with my jewelry.
*
This is the most bizarre action I've ever known an airline to take with respect to a passenger's carry-on luggage, and may well be the most egregious case of airline carelessness you have heard.

Still, it doesn't stop here. Now Continental is claiming no responsibility and has retained Fulbright and Jaworski to fight me. They asked for receipts of all items over $100, which I told them I did not have, so –per their request and suggestion -- *I supplied them with credit card statements and personal letters from the store managers who have records of my purchases. I believed that Continental had agreed to honor this information, but absolutely nothing came of it.
*
They took entirely unnecessary, unapproved, unilateral action over which I had no control and which directly resulted in the loss of my property. *There was nothing I could have done to have prevent this, and now they choose to pay exorbitant legal fees rather than compensate me for the loss they caused.

This is a serious matter that seems to mean nothing to them.

[jimworcs]

This is outrageous.. and I hope you will continue the legal fight. There is a fundamental principle at stake here. You took all reasonable precautions to ensure that you did not check in valuables and that the bag with these essential items remained with you at all times. This is in accordance with their advice. Do not put valuables in checked in luggage nor medications. The airline took control away from you, without your consent, and failed to meet their legal obligation to protect your property. I would say that in these unique circumstances you would have a very good chance of winning eventually. You should also try to get some TV publicity for this.... there is nothing you could have done and Continental have been unreasonable.

[PHXFlyer]

What was the dollar amount you are claiming that was lost? It is very unusual for any airline to get an attorney involved unless you threatened to sue them first. Did you try to initiate a claim with your homeowners insurance first? Believe it or not they sometimes cover losses such as items stolen from your car while parked or valuables taken from your bags while traveling. You should also check with the issuer of the credit card with which you purchased the tickets. Sometimes there is an automatic but often limited travel insurance policy that you might be able to make a claim against.

Why do I get the feeling that once again we're only getting part of the story here? Incidentally, Ms. Heathernicoleb, neither Mrs. Bush is the first lady any longer.

[PHXFlyer]

Did some online research. Google is our friend! The graduation ceremony the OP attended was in May of 2006 so despite what was posted this alleged incident is not recent. She has posted the exact same story, verbatim, to several websites/blogs. Furthermore searches for Fulbright and Jaworski + Continental Airlines found nothing recent either. The firm does have a presence in Houston however the only hits other than the OP's recent and numerous posts were the fact that Fulbright and Jaworski were among the firms who represented Continental in their bankruptcy case back in 1991-1993.

I still feel we're not getting the whole story here.

[jimworcs]

I am not sure your research has taken us any further forward. It seems to corroborate her story... (ie, legal firm that is known to have dealings with Continental, same posting elsewhere, etc). The posting may simply reflect the frustration of the OP with the legal battle dragging out.

It sounds to me like this is a very high value claim and is being fought vigorously. Whether Continental believe the OP had items to the value she claims, they would never have been in that situation had they not been so negligent. The handling of this sounds OUTRAGEOUS ( as Judge Judy might say).

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

I am not sure your research has taken us any further forward. It seems to corroborate her story... (ie, legal firm that is known to have dealings with Continental, same posting elsewhere, etc). The posting may simply reflect the frustration of the OP with the legal battle dragging out.

It sounds to me like this is a very high value claim and is being fought vigorously. Whether Continental believe the OP had items to the value she claims, they would never have been in that situation had they not been so negligent. The handling of this sounds OUTRAGEOUS ( as Judge Judy might say).

My point about the law firm, Jim, is that if there had been cases in which they represented Continental since there would be records which would show up during internet searches. No such records seem to exist. Furhtermore the OPs post begins "Continental Airlines recently lost a bag of mine..." in every post I found yet all of those posts to the various blogs, forums and websites were all posted within the last couple of days. I don't know about you but I don't consider an incident which occurred nearly 3 1/2 years ago recent. Additionally she closes with the statement, "This is a serious matter that seems to mean nothing to them." If it means nothing to them why have they allegedly retained the services of an attorney? Besides, Continental has their own legal staff that would handle something like this were it to go to litigation. Something just isn't right about this one.

[jimworcs]

Perhaps HeatherNicol will enlighten us with details.... although I have a feeling maybe not.

[Jetliner]

I'm calling BS on this one outright. They wouldn't normally just take a bag off without asking who it belongs to. But OK, let's assume that happened.

They absolutely would not hire an outside law firm to handle such a case. And certainly would not involve any legal council with the claim is still being worked. As PHX pointed out, the airlines have their own in house legal staff, and even with what she claimed is missing, it would still probably be a dollar amount that would fall into small claims court, which a lawyer is prohibited from participating in.

In fact, if she had sustained a major physical injury to herself and sued Continental, they still would not hire such a law firm. They would use inside council. That firm is there for major corporate legal issues, not some baggage issue.

[jimworcs]

Jetliner
What are you suggesting? That some loon is going around making up quite specific complaints and posting them on boards? Let's look at the evidence...

The Initiative to Educate Afghan Women certainly exists (as our undercover investigator, PHXflyer's was able to confirm). Laura Bush certainly travelled to Rhode Island for the graduation ceremony. There were indeed many of the supporters of the IEAW in the audience, which if you read the IEAW Spring Newsletter, 2006 you would know. I am surprised Jetliner you have not already done so... I thought most well read people would subscribe.

The detailed description of how her bag came to be moved, including how she was subsequently identified has details which are a bit too bizarre to make up. Now normally at this point in my investigation, I would invite all the key players to a reception, without telling them the purpose. On the day of the event, I would move around the room getting snippets of information which build up a picture of the truth. Heather Nicole discloses the name of a law firm. It turns out this law firm has dealings with Continental, but the plot thickens as Jetliner raises the possibility of a dastardly plot to deceive. This would culminate in the final "reveal" at the end of the evening when I would put all the clues together and expose the TRUTH! (You must have watched Miss Marple or Murder she Wrote Jetliner...unless you were living under a rock).

The other alternative, is that Continental lost the bag of some rich chick who claims the bag contained a lot of expensive jewellery. Attempts to find a resolution between the claimant and the airline have failed and the claimant has now escalated the claim. Continental have ask their legal firm to send a formal letter indicating their intention to vigorously defend the claim in an attempt to get the claim resolved. The rich chick has responded by going nuclear and posting the facts all over the internet.

Which do we think is most likely?

I would love to invite you all to a party in a lovely Rhode Island Mansion and try to get to the bottom of this mystery... but sadly, Jessica Fletcher was unavailable... and I would also be scared that I would be murdered in the library by PHXflyer.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Jetliner
What are you suggesting? That some loon is going around making up quite specific complaints and posting them on boards?

For the record, Jim, you said it, not us!

[Jetliner]

Jim - they may have lost the bag, but after that the details get real shady at best. As I said before, they wouldn't hire an outside law firm for something like this. The would use inside council.

And actually which is more believable - they took the bag from the overhead and asked who it belonged to, or they took the bag and looked inside hoping to find a name and where she was going and got lucky. I'm going with A. It's much easier to simply ask "who does this bag belong to". That's why I'm having trouble buying the whole story in the first place.

[jimworcs]

My problem with your theory is motive: why would someone go to such trouble to research a legal firm who had previously had dealings with Continental in order to create a hoax complaint? What benefit would she receive from doing such a thing? Therefore, your insistance that this would only be dealt with by inside counsel doesn't stack up. She must have either received some correspondence from the law firm or done some very elaborate research. I think the former is much more likely.

I would be prepared to suggest that Continental suspect her of inflating her claim, and are disputing the value of the claim. However, I doubt that this incident didn't take place. There are far too many details.

[AirlinesMustPay]

I took American Airlines to Court twice in Trinidad and each time they hired an Attorney from Trinidad to represent them and not their in-house lawyers. So it is perfectly reasonable for an Airline to retain outside lawyers if it is a city where they do not have inhouse lawyers. BTW they settled in full once they saw the proceedings filed and on the first date of hearing it was just a matter of entering an Order by consent.

I gather that the only question here is one of quantum of damage and not the question of liability.

[Jetliner]

That's not the same. In Trinidad they would not be able to use an American lawyer. The OP is in the US, and that is where the claim is.

Jim- All she had to do was see that name in the paper or somewhere else in the news where they have represented Continental in some corporate legal deal.

As PHX pointed out this could not possibly have happened "recently". But I guess just because she says it, and since she a passenger it must all be true right?

[AirlinesMustPay]

That is true about not being able to us an American lawyer in Trinidad. But I do know, being a lawyer myself, that American companies even with in- house lawyers often hire lawyers to represent them.

In England, where I was admitted to practice many years ago, I know that companies often prefer to retain outside Counsel instead of use their own lawyers in litigation. Often, in-house lawyers are Corporate lawyers and do not have the expertise needed for litigation.

On the point about the use of the word "recent" I suspect that the passenger has simply repeated the same complaint she has been making for the past few years, not realising that the word recent is no longer appropriate

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by AirlinesMustPay

That is true about not being able to us an American lawyer in Trinidad. But I do know, being a lawyer myself, that American companies even with in- house lawyers often hire lawyers to represent them.

In England, where I was admitted to practice many years ago, I know that companies often prefer to retain outside Counsel instead of use their own lawyers in litigation. Often, in-house lawyers are Corporate lawyers and do not have the expertise needed for litigation.

On the point about the use of the word "recent" I suspect that the passenger has simply repeated the same complaint she has been making for the past few years, not realising that the word recent is no longer appropriate

What?

[jimworcs]

Jetliner...
I have no doubt that if someone wanted to research it, they could do so via Google or newspapers etc... but you didn't answer my question. The detail of the name of the lawyer doesn't advance her case, add to the credibility or anything else... what would be her motive for such a thing? Also, all the other details she gives, such as Laura Bush attending the event in Rhode Island, IEAW, etc.. are accurate. I think you are clutching at straws to try and discredit the complaint.

My take is that this is a legitimate complaint, but that the issue is quantum. ~As we have no information about what was in the bag, we have no way of knowing if it is widely inflated, legitimate or whatever.

If you scan through my posts I think you will find a number of postings in which I have doubted the credibility of people who have criticised the airlines and/or suggested that there was no legitimate complaint.

[Jetliner]

I'm not saying anything about the Laura Bush part of this. The OP may very well have gone to see this. What I'm saying is I don't buy the part that she claims happened on the plane. Who knows what her motive is. She didn't get the exact seat she wanted, or they were out of her brand of soda that day - who knows? She may have had a bag missing that too longer than she liked to be delivered, or maybe it never showed up, but a few missing clothes isn't a glamorous enough story.

Airilnesmustpay: We are not talking about legal council outside the US. Companies in the UK may not use their in house council, but that is not always the case in the US. You are comparing two different countries' legal systems.

[AirlinesMustPay]

I do not think that a Flight attendant will remove a bag from the overhead bin without asking whose it was. But with full overhead bins, passengers often have to store their carry ons some distance from where they sit and so the OP may not have heard when the FA asked whose it was.

If the FA was smart she would have had someone with her when she opened the bag to identify the owner and then take the bag to the OP to let her see if it could be stored under the seat in front or at least let her take out her valuables.

If the OP was given a tag number for the bag when she was told the bag was tagged to Providence, this supports the case as if the tag number was a fake, Continental would have been able to tell her that.

The fact that the Attorneys are asking her for receipts, show that Continental accepts her story but doubt the value of her loss.

I feel a Judge hearing her case will rule against the airline. It is difficult to determine what was really in the bag, but the airline is in charge and the airline should not simply have tagged the carry on without giving her a chance to secure valuables.

I travelled on Delta from JFK to Port of Spain a few months ago and the flight was full to the extent that they had people taking carry ons from passengers on entering the aircraft. But the agent asked if there was medication or valuables in the carry on and then gave me a tag for the bag. If Continental knew that they had a flight so full that the overhead lockers were that full, then they may have done that.

If the OP is reading these posts, she should be careful with deadlines for filing a claim. If it was an international flight the Warsaw Convention applies and she has 2 years to file a claim in Court. If it was a domestic flight then the laws of the state where the contract was entered will apply.

Jetliner: Although I never practised law in the United States, I know from speaking to US Attorneys that it is not strange for US companies to retain Attorneys to represent them even if they have inhouse lawyers.

[AirlinesMustPay]

I forgot to add, if the OP is making a large claim as if she had the crown jewels in her bag, Continental's use of reputable Attorneys may be their way of scaring her into accepting a lower settlement amount

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by Jetliner

Who knows what her motive is. She didn't get the exact seat she wanted, or they were out of her brand of soda that day - who knows?.

We don't have to speculate as to what got her angry. If the FA took away her carry on then invaded her privacy by opening her purse, then instead of giving it to her at the end of the flight they tag it to a further point, that is enough to get anyone angry enough to make an inflated claim.

It's like if the police go into a home without a warrant, conduct an illegal search, and rough up some of the occupants, after they leave the occupants suddenly realise that they had a wad of $100 notes under the mattress that went missing after the visit by the police. They know they have the police on the hook for entering without a warrant, and so they hope the authorities will settle instead of let their unlawful acts be publicised

[Silent Bob]

Of all the analogies used on this site, airlinesmustpay, your's just happen to be the worst. if the occupants of an illegal search realizes that money under a matress went missing, they'd have to prove the money wasn't hidden there because of something illegal i.e. drugs and/or a robbery. (police have been known to rob from drug dealers, etc) Most likely if they are drug users, they wouldn't report the case simply because they are dealers and don't wanna face time or fear of revenge of the cops who took the loot. Now if they did persue it, and the money was illegal to begin with, I do believe the city/state wouldn't settle with criminals (though i wouldn't be surprised if they did) and the officers would face serious charges. But ultimately the occupants of the house would have to prove there was a large amount of money under the mattress, and though the police did enter illegally, it would still come down to a back and forth he said - he/she said. It's actually deeper than how i put it, but it really is a bad analogy.

In the case of the OP, I do have doubts as well that the FA moved her bag full of valuables. In all my flights, I've seen the overhead get full, but never have I seen an FA take someone else's bag down and then move it to make room for others. When that happens those whose bags that do not fit in the overhead place them under their seats or they get tagged and placed underneath the plane OR the gate agent starts tagging bags before boarding because of the possibility that the space in the overhead will be limited. (this is usually done on the smaller planes). If an FA helped the OP put her bag in the overhead then there is no reason for staff members to start takin stuff down to make room. Make room for what exactly? Someone else's bag? That'd be stupid.

Do I think this tale is exxagerated and the contents of the bag inflated? Oh yes definitely. Why? Money that's why. People have done crazier things for money, especially when dealing with a huge corporation:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Wen...152355086.html (Woman chops off finger)


How much of a loss are we claiming here? thousands? millions? This is gonna be a tough case, but one that will work in the airlines favor. They may settle but for far less than what the OP is asking.

[AirlinesMustPay]

I also agree that the OP's loss is inflated and I thought that would have been clear from my posts. My analogy about the money under the matress also is about where someone makes an inflated claim. But both cases have this common thread, which is that where someone in authority does an illegal act, the victim, knowing he has the authority on the hook, is tempted to make an inflated claim. If you live in New YOrk I'm surprised you don't know that this often happens. Police sometimes conduct illegal searches and then face all kinds of allegations about things going missing. With regard to my analogy, persons do not have to prove that money in their possession is not from an illegal source. You would be reversing the burden of proof. The burden would be on those who allege illegality to prove it. Again, you can't be living in the United States and not know that someone accused of something has no burden to showing anything. Countries such as the US and England have led the way in establishing the rights of individuals. Lawmakers in other countries have followed your lead in enacting laws to protect rights of individuals, and now to my surprise, I see someone from New York saying that people have to prove that something is not illegal.

Anyway that is really a side issue. In this OP's case, I have seen this happen. People who last enter a crowded flight, find the overhead bins full. They look for space and sometimes go several seats away to find a space in an overhead bin. Before take off the FAs close all the doors on the bins. Sometimes a bag is protruding and the door cant close. It is not that the FA took out one bag and put in another. The FA takes out the bag that is sticking out, asks for the owner and helps the owner store it elsewhere. What seems to have happened here is that the OP did not see or hear when the FA was removing her bag and did not answer when the FA asked whose bag it was.

So the question of liability seems crytal clear based on what the OP says, but I agree that her alleged losses may have been inflated.

[Silent Bob]

Living in the NY, thus the U.S, believe me I know that cops do a little dippin even on legal searches. And I even stated that in my original post.

Of all the analogies used on this site, airlinesmustpay, your's just happen to be the worst. if the occupants of an illegal search realizes that money under a matress went missing, they'd have to prove the money wasn't hidden there because of something illegal i.e. drugs and/or a robbery. (police have been known to rob from drug dealers, etc)

So do I believe that police steal from drug busts, searches, etc? Oh definitely yes. My point is, going back to your original analogy, if the accuser steps forth and says "hey when those officers searched my house, they stole thousands of dollars" how can they prove their case, if the cops say they didn't do it? The burden of proof falls on the person making the accusation. You NEED proof before you can make any accusation or our legal system would be flooded with cases of people suing anybody simply because they can (And the U.S. is sue happy enough). Again looking at your analogy, we have an illegal search and money missing. If the, now victims, of the crime accuse the cops of taking it and the cops deny it, well then its a back and forth battle because there would be no proof other than the accusers word that the money was there.

and now to my surprise, I see someone from New York saying that people have to prove that something is not illegal.

I don't know where you got that, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point because it has nothing to do with my original statement. please clarify.

I have seen this happen. People who last enter a crowded flight, find the overhead bins full. They look for space and sometimes go several seats away to find a space in an overhead bin. Before take off the FAs close all the doors on the bins. Sometimes a bag is protruding and the door cant close.

That was my point originally, but in the case of the OP her bag was placed by the FA in the overhead a few rows away from her seat (her words), so it must have fit properly enough that it satisfied the FA to be there. But i don't see a gate agent coming on board and removing her bag from the overhead, moving it to the lower area and no one told the OP until AFTER they started take off. If they can find her during take off, why couldn't they find her before hand?

[AirlinesMustPay]

Originally Posted by Silent Bob

If they can find her during take off, why couldn't they find her before hand?

You hit the nail on the head Bob. Seems to me like you are arguing the case on behalf of the OP.

I think I had misread your post when I concluded you were saying that people would have to disprove illegality. Sorry.


In a civil suit, the Plaintiff does have the burden of proof. If the police find themselves illegally in someones home, the Plaintiff's job is very easy. To prove something in this case like if they took money, the first question is did they have the opportunity the answer is of course yes. Next did they have the motive, again putting someones money in your pocket to enrich yourself is always a motive. But the case does not end there. It depends on whether the Judge will believe the Plaintiff. Where it is a question of whose word the judge will take, it depends on what is believable. Is the Plaintiff a known criminal with a record? Police officers flouting the law by making an illegal search> That goes against them. If the amount of money is ridiculously high given who the occupants of the house were, the Judge may not believe them. But what if they say the wife had her jewelery in a cabinet wher the police searched and the jewelery went missing? Would a policeman have a motive to put it in his pocket? Well he would. Questions of fact like this are answered by the Court when the witnesses give their evidence in Court. The judge looks as who the people are and whether it is reasonable to expect that they would have had what they say they lost.

In this case, the FA or gate attendent was clearly wrong to take away the bag and I have no doubt that a Judge will find that she did take it away. The OP says there was a tag number. If that number was fictitious, Continental could pull that number up on its computers and tell her so. The fact that they hire lawyers to ask her for receipt tells me that they know that the bag was taken away but suspect as we do that she is inflating he losses. Again to prove her case in Court it depends in part on what is reasonable for her to have been travelling with. A lady going to a function will be expected to have some jewelry with her. If she says she had a diamond necklace worth $5,000, a Court will readily believe her. If however she says she had jewelery worth $50,000 a Court will want to be convinced of her means and that she is a person likely to have been travelling with that.

It depends too on the demeanour of witnesses in cases of who says what. The OP will give her evidence and the FA will no doubt be brought to court by the airline to say she did not take any jewelery out of the bag. The OP's lawyer will ask her just what you asked as I quoted you above. The Judge's job will be to determine who is lying

In this case the FA put herself in the wrong (just like the police who enter a home illegally) by taking away the bag. When flight is about to leave there are gate attendants at the door before the door is closed. They take hand luggage that cant fit and put in in the hold and give the passenger a tag for it. This has to be what happened. There can be any number of reasons why the bag could not fit. Another passenger may have moved it aside to fit his own bag. The FA took the bag to the gate attendant. They opened it to see a name. They found the name. Instead of immediately returning the bag to the passenger, they put it in the hold with the checked luggage and gave it a tag. The FA told her about it after the door was closed and gave her the tag number.

An entirely believable scenario.

My own experience is that airlines will try to avoid this kind of litigation. Even if the OP proves only $500 in lost jewellery, the airline's reputation will suffer immensely, if passengers get word that Continental has FAs who steal jewelery from hand luggage