[punkydoodles]

Don't know who's idea it was to get rid of family pre-boarding, but it's clear that said person has never traveled with a small child! I used to luv SW but refuse to fly with them anymore - I'd rather give my money to the oil companies and drive 12 hrs to visit my parents. Pre-boarding families is beneficial to both the families and the other passengers. By letting families on first, they have time to get the children situated (not to mention even able to sit together in the first place!!) Carry ons stored, and be seated by the time the remaining passenger board. This way, a long line of people are waiting, impatiently, while a stressed out mom deals with her kiddos. Now when I fly with my children, I have to fold down the stroller with people waiting behind me (the stroller which SW can't seem to understand is to be GATE CHECKED!!) then I have to wait in the isles with 2 kids under the age of two while all the A group finishes getting situated. Then I find a seat towards the back where all 3 of us can actually sit TOGETHER. I try to hurry and settle so other passengers are waiting. Getting off is just as bad. Because of the new pre-board rules I am now in the back of the plane (because I wanted my family to sit TOGETHER!) So we must wait, again, with 2 kids under 2, which people lolly-gag off the flight. Had we pre-boarded we would have been in the front. Easy on. Easy off. Everyone is happy. I really wish Southwest would rethink this policy - it's by far the dummest thing I'v ever heard (yup, even dumber than charging for luggage!!)

-sarah-

[richright]

I partially disagree Sarah but I understand the problem and have a better proposed solution that would make both of us happy.
Years ago I complained like the dickens over the excess amount of preboards as not only you and your kids would pre-board but also husbands that would sometimes steal my emergency exit row seat. After a lot of complaints they amended their policy that says preboards can't sit in the exit row seat. I believe this policy is somewhat unofficial however as their carriage of terms states specaial needs persons CAN be excluded from the exit row but nothing states this is absolute. Anyway they eventually cut out a lot of the preboarding. However what they did do was essentially replace much of the former preboarding with business select and frequent fliers by automatically giving these customers the first slots in the A-line. These people don't have to check in early just pay about twice as much as most or fly a lot on Southwest. That excludes me and you and most other people.
What they should do is calculate the number of special needs persons in advance and reserve seats for them in the front. Upon boarding you board last to speed up the boarding process but you get pre-assigned seats in the front. For people like me that have a 39" inseam and NEED the emergency exit row seat I get one of those pre-assigned to me also. For this convenience we pay a nominal fee to make it worthwhile for Southwest and keep the other passengers from being envious over our "special treatment". After all most would not want to pay even a few extra dollars for special treatment unless they really needed it.
Case closed and everyone is happy.
What we have now is an elitist system. First come first served unless you pay a lot more or fly on a frequent basis. Then you get special treatment. That doesn't seem fair to me because it is not based on need but rather greed on Southwests part.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by punkydoodles

Don't know who's idea it was to get rid of family pre-boarding, but it's clear that said person has never traveled with a small child! ...with 2 kids under the age of two while all the A group finishes getting situated. Then I find a seat towards the back where all 3 of us can actually sit TOGETHER. ... I am now in the back of the plane (because I wanted my family to sit TOGETHER!) So we must wait, again, with 2 kids under 2, which people lolly-gag off the flight. Had we pre-boarded we would have been in the front. Easy on. Easy off. -sarah-

Really? Easy on - easy off? Better that you and your kids are at the back of the plane so that the bulk of the passengers don't have to trip over you and your stuff as you scramble to settle/pick up all of your kid-crap to get on/off. It was YOUR choice to have kids and YOUR choice to travel with them. Why should YOU get special treatment because of a life choice that YOU made?

Originally Posted by richright

I partially disagree Sarah but I understand the problem and have a better proposed solution that would make both of us happy.
Years ago I complained like the dickens over the excess amount of preboards as not only you and your kids would pre-board but also husbands that would sometimes steal my emergency exit row seat. After a lot of complaints they amended their policy that says preboards can't sit in the exit row seat. I believe this policy is somewhat unofficial however as their carriage of terms states specaial needs persons CAN be excluded from the exit row but nothing states this is absolute.

Actually, FAA regs DO state that if you are traveling with young children, even if separated you cannot sit in an exit row. The reason being that in an emergency a parent is more likely to see the safety of his/her family than assist with the opening of the exit and evacuation which is expected of those occupying exit row seats.

Anyway they eventually cut out a lot of the preboarding. However what they did do was essentially replace much of the former preboarding with business select and frequent fliers by automatically giving these customers the first slots in the A-line. These people don't have to check in early just pay about twice as much as most or fly a lot on Southwest. That excludes me and you and most other people.

Pay twice as much? How do you arrive at this? For example, the "anytime" fare frpm Phoenix to Philadelphia is $382. The Business Select is $407. By your math it should be $784.

What they should do is calculate the number of special needs persons in advance and reserve seats for them in the front.

How on earth do you expect them to do this?

For people like me that have a 39" inseam and NEED the emergency exit row seat I get one of those pre-assigned to me also.

You have already stated you are an infrequent SWA flier. Why would you expect exit row seating just because you are tall?

What we have now is an elitist system. First come first served unless you pay a lot more or fly on a frequent basis. Then you get special treatment. That doesn't seem fair to me because it is not based on need but rather greed on Southwests part.

Greed? You are calling rewarding loyalty or paying a premium fare greed? Yes, it IS elitist. It's called taking care of your best customers. Loyal customers should be rewarded with priority seating.

[Corbel]

couldn't agree with PHXFlyer more with EVERYTHING he stated

[richright]

Quote:
Originally Posted by richright
I partially disagree Sarah but I understand the problem and have a better proposed solution that would make both of us happy.
Years ago I complained like the dickens over the excess amount of preboards as not only you and your kids would pre-board but also husbands that would sometimes steal my emergency exit row seat. After a lot of complaints they amended their policy that says preboards can't sit in the exit row seat. I believe this policy is somewhat unofficial however as their carriage of terms states specaial needs persons CAN be excluded from the exit row but nothing states this is absolute.

Actually, FAA regs DO state that if you are traveling with young children, even if separated you cannot sit in an exit row. The reason being that in an emergency a parent is more likely to see the safety of his/her family than assist with the opening of the exit and evacuation which is expected of those occupying exit row seats.

If you read my statement correctly you would understand the wife is sitting with the kids and the husband is sitting in my emergency exit row seat.


Quote:
Anyway they eventually cut out a lot of the preboarding. However what they did do was essentially replace much of the former preboarding with business select and frequent fliers by automatically giving these customers the first slots in the A-line. These people don't have to check in early just pay about twice as much as most or fly a lot on Southwest. That excludes me and you and most other people.
Pay twice as much? How do you arrive at this? For example, the "anytime" fare frpm Phoenix to Philadelphia is $382. The Business Select is $407. By your math it should be $784.

If we use your math as any loyal Southwest employee is trained to state, you would only use the "Anytime" full fares and then say Business Select is only a "few dollars" more. If you are an objective engineer as I am one would use the average "Wanna Get Away Fare" which is what most people actually pay. In fact in some cases if you used the lowest rock bottom fare offered, Business Select would in many cases be nearly THREE times as much. Apparently many other passengers agree with me that the perks offered by Business Select is not quite worth twice as much as there was only 1 person boarding under this fare structure in the two flight segments I recently took.



Quote:
What they should do is calculate the number of special needs persons in advance and reserve seats for them in the front.
How on earth do you expect them to do this?

Quite easily. It would be the same as any other airline such as Spirit or Jet Blue. Special needs could be indicated during the reservation process or upon check-in. This is not rocket science as you imply.


Quote:
For people like me that have a 39" inseam and NEED the emergency exit row seat I get one of those pre-assigned to me also.
You have already stated you are an infrequent SWA flier. Why would you expect exit row seating just because you are tall?

Because I don't fit in a normal seat. People who are short receive no benefit to extra legroom if their legs can't even touch the seat in front of them. Competitors offer people like me the opportunity to sit in the exit row seat so I will go with them from now on. Should Southwest change their policy I will reconsider. I have not stated I am an infrequent flyer. When I am away on contract assignments I fly about 2 round trips per month. Much less than some to be sure, but more than others.


Quote:
What we have now is an elitist system. First come first served unless you pay a lot more or fly on a frequent basis. Then you get special treatment. That doesn't seem fair to me because it is not based on need but rather greed on Southwests part.
Greed? You are calling rewarding loyalty or paying a premium fare greed? Yes, it IS elitist. It's called taking care of your best customers. Loyal customers should be rewarded with priority seating.

Yes, they should be rewarded with priority seating but NOT my exit row seat. Apparently you are a short arrogant person that works for Southwest? The type of employee without empathy for others that they could probably do without.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by richright

Quote:
Originally Posted by richright

If you read my statement correctly you would understand the wife is sitting with the kids and the husband is sitting in my emergency exit row seat.

Which, had you read my statement thoroughly, is not something that the crew should allow. With Dad in the exit row and Mom and kids elsewhere on the plane, what do you think Dad is going to do if something goes wrong? His parental instinct will kick in and not only will he not assist with evacuation, he'll become an obstacle as he goes against the flow trying to get to his family who are elsewhere on the plane.

If we use your math as any loyal Southwest employee is trained to state, you would only use the "Anytime" full fares and then say Business Select is only a "few dollars" more. If you are an objective engineer as I am one would use the average "Wanna Get Away Fare" which is what most people actually pay. In fact in some cases if you used the lowest rock bottom fare offered, Business Select would in many cases be nearly THREE times as much. Apparently many other passengers agree with me that the perks offered by Business Select is not quite worth twice as much as there was only 1 person boarding under this fare structure in the two flight segments I recently took.

I don't know why you assumed I am a Southwest employee. Guess what, I'm not. Nor am I an employee of any other airline. I do, however, log anywhere from 125,000 to 150,000 miles a year and that's actual flown miles excluding bonuses etc. Two of the airlines I fly most invite me once a year to attend meetings with their top people in marketing, revenue management, loyalty programs, etc. Anyone in airline revenue management, Southwest included, will tell you that your statement that most people pay the lowest fare is absolutely false. If any southwest flight was more than 50% full of people paying the lowest fare it would probably not be profitable. In my example, I used Phoenix-Philadelphia which I know to be a popular and profitable route for Southwest and also one of the longest they serve with non-stop flights. Their current one-way fares, excluding taxes and airport/security fees, are $210, $232, $255, $282, $312, $345, $382 (Anytime) and $407 (Business Select). So by your logic, the $407 business fare is twice the "typical" fare paid by "most" passengers, or $204. As you can see, $204 is lower than the lowest Southwest fare for this market and I can say pretty assuredly that somewhat less than half of the passengers on any given flight actually pay the lowest fare.

Quite easily. It would be the same as any other airline such as Spirit or Jet Blue. Special needs could be indicated during the reservation process or upon check-in. This is not rocket science as you imply.

The only time an airline is aware of a special needs customer is when there is a request for wheelchair assistance, an indication that a passenger is traveling with a service animal, etc. Many persons who self-identify as having a special need have no such special services requested in their reservation. What I'd like to ask is do you consider yourself a special needs customer simply because you are a person of height?

Because I don't fit in a normal seat. People who are short receive no benefit to extra legroom if their legs can't even touch the seat in front of them. Competitors offer people like me the opportunity to sit in the exit row seat so I will go with them from now on. Should Southwest change their policy I will reconsider. I have not stated I am an infrequent flyer. When I am away on contract assignments I fly about 2 round trips per month. Much less than some to be sure, but more than others.

Perhaps you should consider consolidating your flying to one carrier or carriers in an alliance. If you fly a minimum of 25,000 miles a year you would then be eligible to pre-select seats which give you extra room or even get an occasional upgrade to first class. United comes to mind. They aren't always the cheapest option but have an Economy Plus section (all rows from the exit rows forward) that elites (25K+ miles per year) can select at the time of booking. You can also pay a one-time fee annually ($349) and be able to select those seats as well. Plus the miles you accrue flying United and their partners can get you alot further than Southwest's Rapid Rewards program. Can RR credits get you flights to Europe and Asia? Hell no.

Yes, they should be rewarded with priority seating but NOT my exit row seat. Apparently you are a short arrogant person that works for Southwest? The type of employee without empathy for others that they could probably do without.

You call me arrogant yet there is just a hint of a sense of entitlement in your statement. "...NOT my exit row seat." (Emphasis mine) I'm sure we are both intelligent and educated people and if that comes off as arrogant than so be it. Actually I am of quite average height (5'11") and do appreciate the extra room that most exit rows provide. Were you aware that the 737-700, which currently comprises just over 60% of Southwest's fleet and is the only 737 variant for which Southwest has any aircraft on order, only provides a little more than an inch of additional pitch in the exit rows? Just a fact that I thought I'd pass on.

I do fly Southwest, albeit very infrequently. Most of the time it is for leisure travel and when my destination is either Las Vegas or Southern California. (I have residences in both Phoenix and New York but call Phoenix my permanent residence.) For short-haul flights I can endure the "cattle-call" boarding process and having to settle for a less than desirable seat.

I dislike their route system and how they market it. They say they save their customers money by not having a "hub and spoke" system like most legacies yet to fly from coast to coast you are sometimes on a flight that makes two stops with one change of plane. What's the difference? I can fly from Phoenix to any of the three New York area airports (five if you count Westchester and Newburgh) on either non-stop or one stop service on any other airline and their claim of having service to "New York" by virtue of their flights to Long Island's MacArthur is laughable.

So you see, I am neither an employee or huge fan of Southwest. As they say, "it is what it is."

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

Comfortable seating, in coach, simply does not exist--anywhere in the world! For this reason, intercontinental travel, for someone of your height, can be a very expensive proposition--Business Class, or higher. "Economy Plus" which is offered, under different names, by United, Jet Blue, and Midwest Airlines is a good option--if you're lucky enough to snag one of the few available seats. The mark-up for these seats, over discount coach fare, is about 2 to 4 times higher. United’s flight attendants however tend to have a less than socialable disposition. Unless, of course, you find a small-town power drunk Sheriff conversationally interesting! Failing “Economy Plus,” you’re looking at First Class. About the ONLY thing one can find in domestic First Class nowdays is roomier seating. Everything else is coach---right-down to the nasty attitudes. Virgin America’s First Class is about the only exception. On the other hand, Southwest is your best bet for flight attendants with a civilized attitude. Southwest is one of the few airlines, in the world, that is consistently profitable. Their employees have not seen the kind of management abuse experienced by their colleagues at other US-based carriers. So Southwest customers get better treatment. However, as you’ve said, Southwest’s seating is every bit as cramped as your average “walking-dead” US-based airline!

[richright]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer

Which, had you read my statement thoroughly, is not something that the crew should allow. With Dad in the exit row and Mom and kids elsewhere on the plane, what do you think Dad is going to do if something goes wrong? His parental instinct will kick in and not only will he not assist with evacuation, he'll become an obstacle as he goes against the flow trying to get to his family who are elsewhere on the plane.

Perhaps, but that is allowed by FAA regs. Southwest changed their policy a long time ago due to complaints like mine I believe.


I don't know why you assumed I am a Southwest employee. Guess what, I'm not. Nor am I an employee of any other airline. I do, however, log anywhere from 125,000 to 150,000 miles a year and that's actual flown miles excluding bonuses etc. Two of the airlines I fly most invite me once a year to attend meetings with their top people in marketing, revenue management, loyalty programs, etc. Anyone in airline revenue management, Southwest included, will tell you that your statement that most people pay the lowest fare is absolutely false. If any southwest flight was more than 50% full of people paying the lowest fare it would probably not be profitable. In my example, I used Phoenix-Philadelphia which I know to be a popular and profitable route for Southwest and also one of the longest they serve with non-stop flights. Their current one-way fares, excluding taxes and airport/security fees, are $210, $232, $255, $282, $312, $345, $382 (Anytime) and $407 (Business Select). So by your logic, the $407 business fare is twice the "typical" fare paid by "most" passengers, or $204. As you can see, $204 is lower than the lowest Southwest fare for this market and I can say pretty assuredly that somewhat less than half of the passengers on any given flight actually pay the lowest fare.

People pay the lowest fare available. Maybe on your Phoenix flights there is little discount. On my Providence-Orlando flights the AVERAGE discount fare offered (not the lowest) is typically about HALF the full fare. What are MOST people going to pay. Only business travellers with tickets paid by their corps. are dumb enough to pay full fares.
Frequent flyers like you may be treated as important but unfortunately represent a small percentage of the revenue. After all how many of you are on an aircraft at the same time? The average Southwest passenger is probably once or twice a year Spring breaker or trip to Disney with the kiddies. In fact it would make as much sense to interview first time flyers as it would be you. I offered to work for Southwest for a measly 100K per year. As an engineer with a critical eye I would fly throughout their system and report my observed deficiencies to management for correction. My backround would in fact be more helpful for troubleshooting than the typical "people oriented" airline type of attitude. After all airllines are run by business people not flight attendants. Inconsistencies are flushed out by engineers.


The only time an airline is aware of a special needs customer is when there is a request for wheelchair assistance, an indication that a passenger is traveling with a service animal, etc. Many persons who self-identify as having a special need have no such special services requested in their reservation. What I'd like to ask is do you consider yourself a special needs customer simply because you are a person of height?

I am a special needs customer as I can't fit in a normal seat and will inconvenience other passengers sitting next to me. If you were that guy in the seat next to me you would want the airline to treat me as a special needs person also. Southwest unfortuantely treats me as a criminal if I ask for the emergency exit row seat. They preach, "FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED" when in fact that is NOT exactly the case. It is business select and frequent fliers, THEN first come, first served. If that is what they are, then fine. However that is not what they market themselves as. The kiddie families to Orlando used to annoy me, but the fact was they were treated well with the preboard. Now that this is no longer done they feel alienated just as I do. I see the business select boarders are virtually non-existent. Therefore, I don't see what Southwest is gaining in this process. No more catering to the proletariat and the frequent flier business guys are still on United, American, and Delta. Makes sense? I for one am taking the Logan Express to Boston and going on Delta, or Jet Blue where I get to select MY exit row seats (thank you very much) when purchasing my ticket. I was a very loyal Southwest fan until they became elitist and did their best to drive me away. Not that the other airlines are any better, but the emergency exit row seat is a deciding factor when there is more than one choice.


Perhaps you should consider consolidating your flying to one carrier or carriers in an alliance. If you fly a minimum of 25,000 miles a year you would then be eligible to pre-select seats which give you extra room or even get an occasional upgrade to first class. United comes to mind. They aren't always the cheapest option but have an Economy Plus section (all rows from the exit rows forward) that elites (25K+ miles per year) can select at the time of booking. You can also pay a one-time fee annually ($349) and be able to select those seats as well. Plus the miles you accrue flying United and their partners can get you alot further than Southwest's Rapid Rewards program. Can RR credits get you flights to Europe and Asia? Hell no.

I was driving from Boston to Providence for the convenience of using Southwest. Mainly low airfares and quick in and out of the gate that no one can match. During my last flight from Providence the aircraft albeit not full deplaned, loaded, and was back on the runway (that is runway not taxi-way) taking off within THIRTY minutes. No one else even remotely does that.

You call me arrogant yet there is just a hint of a sense of entitlement in your statement. "...NOT my exit row seat." (Emphasis mine) I'm sure we are both intelligent and educated people and if that comes off as arrogant than so be it. Actually I am of quite average height (5'11") and do appreciate the extra room that most exit rows provide. Were you aware that the 737-700, which currently comprises just over 60% of Southwest's fleet and is the only 737 variant for which Southwest has any aircraft on order, only provides a little more than an inch of additional pitch in the exit rows? Just a fact that I thought I'd pass on.

ALL of the Southwest 737's that I've ever flown on have SIGNIFICANT extra legroom in FOUR of the exit row seats. Generally three on the port side over the wing. The other on the starboard side with no seat in front of it. In these seats anyone short will barely be able to to touch the seat in front of them with their legs fully extended.

I do fly Southwest, albeit very infrequently. Most of the time it is for leisure travel and when my destination is either Las Vegas or Southern California. (I have residences in both Phoenix and New York but call Phoenix my permanent residence.) For short-haul flights I can endure the "cattle-call" boarding process and having to settle for a less than desirable seat.

I dislike their route system and how they market it. They say they save their customers money by not having a "hub and spoke" system like most legacies yet to fly from coast to coast you are sometimes on a flight that makes two stops with one change of plane. What's the difference? I can fly from Phoenix to any of the three New York area airports (five if you count Westchester and Newburgh) on either non-stop or one stop service on any other airline and their claim of having service to "New York" by virtue of their flights to Long Island's MacArthur is laughable.

So you see, I am neither an employee or huge fan of Southwest. As they say, "it is what it is."

2345678910

[Corbel]

Originally Posted by punkydoodles

Don't know who's idea it was to get rid of family pre-boarding, but it's clear that said person has never traveled with a small child! I used to luv SW but refuse to fly with them anymore - I'd rather give my money to the oil companies and drive 12 hrs to visit my parents. Pre-boarding families is beneficial to both the families and the other passengers. By letting families on first, they have time to get the children situated (not to mention even able to sit together in the first place!!) Carry ons stored, and be seated by the time the remaining passenger board. This way, a long line of people are waiting, impatiently, while a stressed out mom deals with her kiddos. Now when I fly with my children, I have to fold down the stroller with people waiting behind me (the stroller which SW can't seem to understand is to be GATE CHECKED!!) then I have to wait in the isles with 2 kids under the age of two while all the A group finishes getting situated. Then I find a seat towards the back where all 3 of us can actually sit TOGETHER. I try to hurry and settle so other passengers are waiting. Getting off is just as bad. Because of the new pre-board rules I am now in the back of the plane (because I wanted my family to sit TOGETHER!) So we must wait, again, with 2 kids under 2, which people lolly-gag off the flight. Had we pre-boarded we would have been in the front. Easy on. Easy off. Everyone is happy. I really wish Southwest would rethink this policy - it's by far the dummest thing I'v ever heard (yup, even dumber than charging for luggage!!)

-sarah-

i just flew southwest and they preboarded families and anyone else that needed assistance. maybe the agent just forgot to preboard. but what is wrong with sitting in the back?? i never understand why everybody wants to sit upfront. for me it doesn't matter but the back is usually less crowded. and yes if you were up front easy on and easy off for you...but what makes you think that while your getting your kids up and taking all your carrry ons out of the overhead bin etc. people behind you aren't thinking....they couldn't have gone to the back. airlines cant always please everybody