[msc39nj]

Go out of business and spare consumers future problems. They can even keep the money and miles they owe me. It would be worth it to see Continental gone and know the world was free of double-booking fraudsters who don't deliver the basic service they sell. This is the worst airline in the world. Don't fly Continental. Don't waste your time. They don't want to talk to customers. They will steal your money and you won't even be able to get someone on the phone complain to, unless you like waiting on hold for hours. They will screw you at the worst possible moment.

[Corbel]

i cant believe people are like this. wishing for thousands of people to loose their jobs because a few employees are bad. sure you may have a rude agent or flight attendant. but why wish the people who do care to be out of a job. ive never had anything go bad or wrong with continental and will continue to fly them

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

First, we all know that, in the US, the airlines, and their employees, are ALMOST immune from the consequences of ANY kind of bad behavior. The only exception which comes to mind is the judgement Northwest Air had to pay-out because of their stranding of passengers on a snowed-in tarmac during the nineties. The argument from airline employees which says we are hard working people who do our best to serve customers is total BS! The reality is there is no policing, by co-workers, of airline employees who have no ability to relate, appropriately, to another human being. Thus these so-called "innocent" airline employees are indeed part of the problem and richly deserve the consequences--if there were any! As to customer behavior, anyone who is drunk; assaultive; or threatens physical violence deserves whatever they get. However, this board is full of stories of customers who get the cops called on them, and get kicked-off planes, and/or kicked out of the airport for making reasonable requests, or asking reasonable questions!

[Corbel]

when i was a customer service agent, i always cared about the customer and as a flight attendant i still do. so for you to say we dont care is BS. there are some who do care like me. i ALWAYS went out of my way to help the customer. we had an incoming flight that was delayed by 4 hours due to weather and the car rental companies in the airport were not going to stay. i recieved a call from one of our passengers and i found them another way of transportation to a local hotel and told them the number to the cab company so they can call them in the morning to get them back to the airport for their car. i received a card from them telling me thank you. i always bent over backwards for our customers....i just dont like it when im getting screamed and yelled at by a passenger that is delayed due to weather when its beyond my control. i dont like how they can yell, scream, poke, and grab me, but if i scream at them they somehow get a free ticket.....explain that to me

[msc39nj]

This is the only industry I know of where fraud is legal. you can legally sell the same seat two or more times and, as I have now learned, sell seats on flights you don't intend to operate. If you would like to defend the jobs of what I believe are likely thousands of hard working and good employees in the industry then you should be fighting, as an insider/employee, for the proper treatment of customers. call it job security. Continental has inflicted itself upon me. I bear responsibility for having made a bad choice in attempting to use them. Now I must fight against the numerous roadblocks they throw up to discourage me from recovering the money and time they have cost me.
As for 'not believing' there are people like this, put yourself in my shoes: You pre-book and pre-pay months in advance. You agree to show up on time and follow the rules and submit to this ridiculous airport security ritual, and be treated like cattle for an exorbitant price. The day before the flight, during the busiest season of the year, the carrier cancels the flight. But, they don't tell you. You get no phone call, you get no email. Your friend calls you and tells you they heard from 5 other people on earlier flights. There is no information for contacting the airline except through the reservations number. When you dial it, you are told by an automated recording, wait times are an hour or more. In fact, while I was writing this, I just got through to a supervisor in Houston who treated me rudely and would not provide full identification, and was not interested in helping us at all, even when I informed her I was complaining to the DOT and Attorney General of NJ. Basically, they don't care. So I say, good riddance.

[Corbel]

i am going to agree with you on contacting a passenger. i remember when we would have a cancelled or delayed flight (Transmeridian airlines, now no more) i would be at work until at least 2am calling ALL passengers i could and telling them of the delay or cancellation. its AMAZING how much they appreciate it. HOWEVER, if you book with a travel agent we dont have your number so we cant call you, so we would have close to 12-20 people we couldn't reach due to that. so if you booked with a travel agent i can see why they couldn't reach you. but if you booked online or over the phone, i agree, the airline should call you they have your number/email i booked a ticket on northwest and united for march, my schedule has changed for both flights on both airlines and both airlines notified me by email.

[PHXFlyer]

Do not add any more to this or any other thread started or added to by msc39NJ. I did a thread search and this user has posted the exact same rants on almost every Continental thread. The past few days have been difficult for air travel. The combination of bad weather plus the volume of passengers traveling for the holidays has left the system backed up with peole trying to reach their destinations.

I'm assuming msc39nj is from New Jersey and probably had a flight out of Continental's Newark hub. He needed only to look out his own window to know what was going on with the weather. Regardless if he was contacted about the cancellation or not wouldn't common sense tell one when there is snow ice and wind that one should call or go online to check the status of one's flight?

As for "double booking" the airlines overbook with the expectation, and they have historical records to substantiate this, that a certain number of passengers will cancel or no-show for flights. If they only booked to the capacity of each aircraft they would be flying with empty seats which is not profitable. All airlines do this so directing a complaint about over-booking at any one airline is pointless.

You obviously had a bad travel experience but does that really necessitate posting to 14 different threads that Continental is criminal and should go out of business?

I traveled yesterday to Newark. When I arrived at 7:30 PM the airport was utter chaos. Many cancelled flights on the display screens, customers in queue to be re-booked, aircraft parked all over the place, etc. Now imagine that the number of people I saw only represents a portion of those affected by cancellations. I'm sure the rest were trying to reach Continental by phone. If you don't have the patience to wait on the line just as everyone else in your situation must then that is your choice. Perhaps you'd rather go to the airport and wait in line for the same amount of time or more?

Finally, if your flight was canceled, you can go to Continental's website to re-schedule your trip with no change fees. Here's the announcement:

EventTravel to/from/throughDatesAdditional InformationWinter StormContinental hubs: Cleveland, OH (CLE); New York/Newark, NJ (EWR - Liberty)
Other airports: Boston, MA (BOS); Cincinnati, OH (CVG); Columbus, OH (CMH); Dayton, OH (DAY); New York, NY (LGA - LaGuardia); Philadelphia, PA (PHL)Original Travel Dates:
Dec. 18, 2008 — Dec. 22, 2008

Final Travel must be completed by:
End of Validity of ticket (one year from date of issue)Change fees and/or additional fare collection will be waived if the rescheduled flights are booked in the original class of service to the same city pairs as originally ticketed and rescheduled travel commences on or before Dec. 29, 2008.

If the new travel commences after Dec. 29, 2008, change fees will be waived, however, additional fare collection will apply.

[msc39nj]

I agree 100%. Listen to what PHXFlyer says. Don't post anything in response to my postings. Instead, post your complaints about Continental to the DOT at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/escomplaint/es.cfm. There is nothing I can do for you. On the other hand, complaints registered with the DOT are 'charged' against the company, and reported to the media. So, if there is anyone who is going to care, you'll get to them by submitting your complaints there.

Continental is terrible. This board purports to be a place to complain about airlines, and continental in particular. I don't see any claim that it is a Continental booster board. People don't visit to say nice things about Continental. You can make up all the platitudes and imaginary weather forecasts you want. I looked out my window all day yesterday and saw nothing but blue skies. There were nothing but blue skies the entire time I waited at the airport. Numerous Continental flights left the same airport on the same day for the same destination, both before and after the cancelled flights. Continental cancelled the flights, provided no notification- no phone call, no email, and if they did put something on their website they didn't do a very good job, because that's the first place I went and nothing stuck out as particularly informative, except for the visually unobvious 'cancelled' status listed along with all the usual flight into, when requesting the status of that particular flight. Like it's no biggie. The only reason I noticed it was a friend told me several flights were cancelled. It's funny that I had no problem calling, reaching, booking and flying JetBlue from the same airport on the same day, to the same destination. Apparently, they learned from their past mistakes, and know what customer service means.

This is a place where people voice complaints about Continental Airlines. I think that providing information to people how to make their complaints in a manner that might get Continental interested in addressing them properly is perfectly reasonable. When a company chooses to treat its customers like dirt, they should expect to be creating negative goodwill.

[ChrisH]

This is wrong. I've seen numerous of my co-workers fired for complaint letters sent in, about them, by customers. The reason things are usually not done, is that most passengers do not take the steps to formally complain, and get the name of the agent they dealt with. If they do, corrective action is taken, from suspension, to termination. In just the past few months, I've seen three of my fellow co-workers fired, for complaints.

I happen to be an airline employee, and I do go out of my way to serve the passengers. I know many agents who do just the same. You cannot lump all airline employees into one. That is BS. How are innocent employees part of the problem? It isn't my job to police my co-workers ... I am not a manager, or a supervisor, and it isn't my job to tell somebody else how to treat a customer. If I see something, that I think needs to be reported to management, I do just that, but at that point, it in the hands of management, not me, or any other "innocent" airline employees.

BTW ... I've seen fast food places offer more starting pay than many airlines pay their agents. The start of where to get good service, is for the airlines to start paying for it. If you pay fast food wages, that is the exact quality of service that you will get.

Don't just lump all airline employees into one, and blame the front line employees, doing all of the work, dealing with the delays, and cancellations, and lost baggage, etc., (which isn't their fault), for $8-9/hr, working sometimes 10-12 hours days. I have worked 11-12 hours per day, for the past two weeks, not by choice, and by the time those weeks come to and end, I'm not in that great of a mood.

Non-airline employees should stop pretending that airline employees are the only one's that can be rude. I've been treated rude my many companies, non-airline, many times. Cashiers at Wal-Mart are rude, many times, and they probably make more than that person who is dealing with you at the airline counter.

Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy Slept Here

First, we all know that, in the US, the airlines, and their employees, are ALMOST immune from the consequences of ANY kind of bad behavior. The only exception which comes to mind is the judgement Northwest Air had to pay-out because of their stranding of passengers on a snowed-in tarmac during the nineties. The argument from airline employees which says we are hard working people who do our best to serve customers is total BS! The reality is there is no policing, by co-workers, of airline employees who have no ability to relate, appropriately, to another human being. Thus these so-called "innocent" airline employees are indeed part of the problem and richly deserve the consequences--if there were any! As to customer behavior, anyone who is drunk; assaultive; or threatens physical violence deserves whatever they get. However, this board is full of stories of customers who get the cops called on them, and get kicked-off planes, and/or kicked out of the airport for making reasonable requests, or asking reasonable questions!

[ChrisH]

You do realize that security is not done by the airlines, and they have no control over it. If you want to complain about security, go to TSA.gov, and send them a complaint. Don't blame Continental. Also, air fare, is not anywhere near what it should be. Air fare should be 2-3 times what it is. Considering inflation, etc., you are lucky you get tickets for what you do. Air fare is no different today, than it was 20-30 years ago. Someone flying you across the country, should incur a hefty price, In my opinion. I find it funny how people want absolute cheap prices, but then turn arount and demand first class service. That is like going to McDonalds, and demanding gourmet.

People say the airline industry is the "only industry where this and that......". The airline industry is the only industry where customers seem to think they shouldn't have to pay, and the company should bow to them. It is the only industry where customers will find the cheapest possible ticket, and then have first class demands. Guess what, the airlines can charge what they want, for what they want, just like Wal-Mart, and McDonalds can charge what they want, for what they want. When Wal-Mart starts charging more for something, people just complain that things are getting more expensive, but when the airlines charge for something, it is "fraud". LOL!!!

By the way ... Do you think Continental is the only airline where what you experienced, is experienced. Go view the complaints about all of the other airlines, and you'll find complaints just like yours. So what will happen, is to avoid flying Continental, you'll possibly spend more, just to put yourself at risk of getting the same treatment.

By the way ... I am a pilot, and weather effects aviation is far more ways than just, is there a thunderstorm out your window. Winds aloft can be 100+ MPH, while at the ground they can be 5 MPH. This can cause delays, yet be a perfectly clear day. ALSO, just because an airplane is scheduled to fly from point A to point B, with you on it, doesn't mean that weather being bad in just those locations, point A, and point B, effect the flight. The airplane can be coming from another city, where the weather is bad, or weather along that route can be bad. These type of cancellations, and delays happen to all airline, not just Continental, and they also effect Joe Schmoe in his little private plane. I've had numerous flights I've had to cancel, flying personally, in my little private plane, for weather. If you knew how weather effected aviation, and how thunderstorms, rain, etc., only scratch the surface, you'd realize how ignorant most passengers are, when they try to make these claims about weather not being an issue, or "I just talked to my friends who said it wasn't even raining". I literally have to bite my tongue not to laugh at those people.

At any rate ... your hope of Continental going under, probably will not happen. Continental is in much better position than most airlines. They have a young fleet, of fuel effecient aircraft. On top of that, despite you experience, Continental is frequently ranked airline of the year, #1 airline in the world, and frequently ranks high in customer satisfaction ratings, next to SWA. Just because you had one bad dealing with Continental, with a few bad apples, doesn't make it a bad airline. Again .. look at the complaints on this message board, for the other airlines. You are kidding yourself if you think flying another airline will prevent this from happening to you, again. But, to each their own. It makes no difference to me.

Originally Posted by msc39nj

This is the only industry I know of where fraud is legal. you can legally sell the same seat two or more times and, as I have now learned, sell seats on flights you don't intend to operate. If you would like to defend the jobs of what I believe are likely thousands of hard working and good employees in the industry then you should be fighting, as an insider/employee, for the proper treatment of customers. call it job security. Continental has inflicted itself upon me. I bear responsibility for having made a bad choice in attempting to use them. Now I must fight against the numerous roadblocks they throw up to discourage me from recovering the money and time they have cost me.
As for 'not believing' there are people like this, put yourself in my shoes: You pre-book and pre-pay months in advance. You agree to show up on time and follow the rules and submit to this ridiculous airport security ritual, and be treated like cattle for an exorbitant price. The day before the flight, during the busiest season of the year, the carrier cancels the flight. But, they don't tell you. You get no phone call, you get no email. Your friend calls you and tells you they heard from 5 other people on earlier flights. There is no information for contacting the airline except through the reservations number. When you dial it, you are told by an automated recording, wait times are an hour or more. In fact, while I was writing this, I just got through to a supervisor in Houston who treated me rudely and would not provide full identification, and was not interested in helping us at all, even when I informed her I was complaining to the DOT and Attorney General of NJ. Basically, they don't care. So I say, good riddance.

[msc39nj]

I am sure most employees are 'good' people, but you only highlight the problems with an airline like Continental. First, the customers pay for the service, and when customers are not happy with the service, they do this thing called complaining. Accept it. Or, don't take our money. Then won't complain. Your service is your service, including all its packaging and delivery (airports, TSA security). Nobody comes to the airport just to experience the sublime pleasure of standing on lines, going through security checkpoints and waiting through delays. The airlines collect all the fees, regardless of where all the costs are, so in the end, it's all their 'product' as far as their customers are concerned, and that's all that matters. Second, let's accept your assertion about pricing. I suggest then that Continental double? triple? it's fares, whatever it takes, stop selling tickets to passengers that it doesn't intend to honor (you've pointed out the motivation to overbook or book tickets on flights you never operate), and attempt to operate profitably. Nuissances like me (other industries think of us as a blessing called 'paying customers'), will either choose not to fly with Continental and go away, or we will choose to fly because Continental provides a valuable service as advertised, and Continental is free to deliver on the promise it made when it sold the ticket, and we won't need to complain, and everyone will be happy. Or, other airlines can operate profitably at present prices while satisfying customers, and Continental will cease to exist. Doesn't matter to me which it is.

[jimworcs]

Firstly, saying that an unacceptable practice is "standard" in the industry doesn't make it right. Airlines have choices.. for example, some low cost airlines do not over book. JetBlue in the US and Easyjet in Europe for example do not do this. If there are no shows, they will sell the seats to standby passengers 40 minutes before departure. It is absolutely wrong that the airlines have been permitted to sell seats that they do not have and strand passengers with the defence that it is in the T&C'S.

Secondly, the airlines set the prices. Passengers do not expect "first class service", but they do expect to be made whole when the airline screws up. Unfortunately, airlines are abdicating their responsibilities in this regard and passengers are left in a uniquely vulnerable position, which is not comparable with other service industries.

Next, the airlines are de-regulated. Normally, where industries are de-regulated they are subjected to normal competitive pressures. However, the US airline industry lobbies and fights to prevent this. They operate like the Robber Barons, demanding special priviledges such as protection from competition and even from being subject to take overs and these are granted by the US Congress. They are effectively subsidised, and misuse Chapter 11 protection repeatedly to screw their employees, customers and suppliers. It is scandalous abuse of their monopoly power and when customers object and complain, their employees come onto websites such as this and defend them.

I don't wish ill on anyone, but corporations which abuse their effective monopolies have to face consquences or they will get out of control. Look at the arrogance of the banks and ask yourself that if they had been properly regulated would this have happened? The answer is no. The same applies to the airlines. Competition only works in a properly regulated environment. It is time to take measures which include:

1. Re-regulating the industry
2. Strict enforcement of minimum standards of service, with fines and
penalties for failure to adhere to them.
3. Drop restrictions on foreign ownership of airlines
4. Drop restrictions on the operation of airlines from other countries
competing with US airlines
5. Ban the sale of seats more than once
6. Prohibit any airline from seeking Chapter 11 protection from creditors
more than once every 20 years
7. Levy penalties and fines on airlines where the DOT establishes any
dishonesty or malfeasance by airline employees. For example, if an
airline refuses lawful compensation and is subsequently found to have
mislead passengers (eg. blaming weather delay when it was in fact an
operational one), to triple the compensation to the passenger.

[Butch Cassidy Slept Here]

If a US-based airline ever seeks an "Open Skies" arrangement involving one or more EU cities, the EU could raise the US bankruptcy laws as an element of unfair competition. I seriously doubt Sabena, of Belgium, had the array of options, when it went bankrupt as did several US airlines. As everyone knows, Sabena had to liquidate, while few of the US-based airlines, which have filed for bankruptcy, have suffered the consequence of liquidation.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by msc39nj

You can make up all the platitudes and imaginary weather forecasts you want. I looked out my window all day yesterday and saw nothing but blue skies. There were nothing but blue skies the entire time I waited at the airport. Numerous Continental flights left the same airport on the same day for the same destination, both before and after the cancelled flights.

Funny. Seemed to me when I arrived @EWR there was this "stuff" which had been plowed off the runways and taxiways. Oh yeah, I think they call it snow/slush. Also, as we taxied into the gate there were departing flights being de-iced as well.

Continental cancelled the flights, provided no notification- no phone call, no email, and if they did put something on their website they didn't do a very good job, because that's the first place I went and nothing stuck out as particularly informative, except for the visually unobvious 'cancelled' status listed along with all the usual flight into, when requesting the status of that particular flight. Like it's no biggie.

It is possible that the number of cancellations overwhelmed the system. My flight to Newark was delayed and I signed up for text (SMS) notifications and got one every time the delay changed. Is it possible that you left no contact information w/Continental or that your contact info was incorrect?

The only reason I noticed it was a friend told me several flights were cancelled. It's funny that I had no problem calling, reaching, booking and flying JetBlue from the same airport on the same day, to the same destination. Apparently, they learned from their past mistakes, and know what customer service means.

Jet Blue has very limited operation at Newark comapred to CO. Their hub is @JFK and I heard that they had delays/cancellation there as well. CO also has a hub at Houston which was also afftected by strong gusty wind. A flight from Phoenix to Houston was put on a 4 hour hold by ATC while I was waiting for my flight. It is very possible that the aircraft you were supposed to board in EWR came from IAH and was affected.

This is a place where people voice complaints about Continental Airlines. I think that providing information to people how to make their complaints in a manner that might get Continental interested in addressing them properly is perfectly reasonable. When a company chooses to treat its customers like dirt, they should expect to be creating negative goodwill.

Yes, this is a place for complaints and when those complaints are valid and presented in a reasonable manner they are validated. You, however, chose to post the same exact thing to twelve different threads which seriously diminished your credibility. Continental transports thousands of peole a day. Not every single one is going to be 100% satisfied. Even after your multiple posts and rants I still am not sure what your major complaint is. Weather caused your flight to be cancelled? It happens. Get used to it and get over it. Continental didn't contact you about the cancellation? They certainly contacted me. Not personally, but I got text messages that gave me timely information about the flight. As a matter of fact, my text messages were getting to me almost as soon as the airport status boards were updated. I'm not buying that you had provided Continental with correct contact information. You weren't even saavy enough to locate the same information on the website that I did regarding re-booking your ticket.

Originally Posted by ChrisH

You do realize that security is not done by the airlines, and they have no control over it. If you want to complain about security, go to TSA.gov, and send them a complaint. Don't blame Continental. Also, air fare, is not anywhere near what it should be. Air fare should be 2-3 times what it is. Considering inflation, etc., you are lucky you get tickets for what you do.

Exactly. TSA is out of Continental's control. So is weather. If ATC edcides that only X number of planes can land in an hour, the airlines bound for that airport have to adjust accordingly which means delaying or cancelling flights. As far as airfare goes, my flight yetsreday was full of paying first-class passengers. There were no complimentary upgrades given. Those paying fir first-class seats were off-setting all the cheap-o fares back in coach.

By the way ... I am a pilot, and weather effects aviation is far more ways than just, is there a thunderstorm out your window. Winds aloft can be 100+ MPH, while at the ground they can be 5 MPH. This can cause delays, yet be a perfectly clear day. ALSO, just because an airplane is scheduled to fly from point A to point B, with you on it, doesn't mean that weather being bad in just those locations, point A, and point B, effect the flight. The airplane can be coming from another city, where the weather is bad, or weather along that route can be bad. These type of cancellations, and delays happen to all airline, not just Continental, and they also effect Joe Schmoe in his little private plane. I've had numerous flights I've had to cancel, flying personally, in my little private plane, for weather. If you knew how weather effected aviation, and how thunderstorms, rain, etc., only scratch the surface, you'd realize how ignorant most passengers are, when they try to make these claims about weather not being an issue, or "I just talked to my friends who said it wasn't even raining". I literally have to bite my tongue not to laugh at those people.

^^ And the bottom line is safety. I'm sure you wouldn't risk your passenger's or your own safety by flying whenn weather is likely to be an issue and Continental will not risk the safety of it's passengers and crew either. If every flight just took off regardless of weather there would be a lot of dead people in a lot of wrecked planes littered about the country.

At any rate ... your hope of Continental going under, ... despite your experience, Continental is frequently ranked airline of the year, #1 airline in the world, and frequently ranks high in customer satisfaction ratings, next to SWA. Just because you had one bad dealing with Continental, with a few bad apples, doesn't make it a bad airline. Again .. look at the complaints on this message board, for the other airlines.

He did look at the other airline's complaints on this board. Then decided Continental had a disproportiante number which is to say disproporttonately few. So he flooded the Continental threads with his miscreance.

Originally Posted by msc39nj

I am sure most employees are 'good' people, but you only highlight the problems with an airline like Continental. First, the customers pay for the service, and when customers are not happy with the service, they do this thing called complaining. Accept it. Or, don't take our money. Then won't complain.

I can only interpret this 2 ways. 1. Continental should give a full refund to anyone who complains regardless of the issue or if the complaint is even valid. OR 2. Continental should provide it's services and only get paid AFTER that service has been rendered and then only if the whole experience was satisfactory. Ridiculous.

Your service is your service, including all its packaging and delivery (airports, TSA security). Nobody comes to the airport just to experience the sublime pleasure of standing on lines, going through security checkpoints and waiting through delays. The airlines collect all the fees, regardless of where all the costs are, so in the end, it's all their 'product' as far as their customers are concerned, and that's all that matters.

So, do you go to the concierge desk at Nordstrom to complain about bad food or poor service in the mall's food court? Sure the airlines collect fees such as passenger facilities charges and the so-called "9/11" security fee. They do so because they are mandated and the collected fees are passed on to the agencies who levy them. Would you rather have to pay the TSA as you go through the screening process and then be met by an aiport employee to collect the passenger facility charge before you're allowed to set foot on the concourse?

Second, let's accept your assertion about pricing. I suggest then that Continental double? triple? it's fares, whatever it takes, stop selling tickets to passengers that it doesn't intend to honor (you've pointed out the motivation to overbook or book tickets on flights you never operate), and attempt to operate profitably.

What about selling tickets to passengers who don't intend to honor their part of the cotract, namely showing up for the flight? (And yes, when you buy airline tickets both parties enter into a contract of carriage.) Let's say an aircraft has 150 seats. So you're saying that the airline would only be alllowed to sell 150 tickets. Let's then say that 10 days before the flight all 150 tickets representing all 150 seats are sold. The airline can, by your rules, no longer sell any more tickets for that flight even though in the 10 days prrior to the flight there are people who would ordinarily have paid for a seat but could not because it is full. Now fast forward to the day the flight is scheduled to depart and a family of four with tickets for that flight get a flat tire on their way to the airport. Now there are 4 seats which will go out empty, even though for the past ten days people would have paid for those seats had they been allowed to do so. It just doesn't make sense not to overbook with the reasonable expectation that not all who are holding tickets for a flight are going to show up.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Firstly, saying that an unacceptable practice is "standard" in the industry doesn't make it right. Airlines have choices.. for example, some low cost airlines do not over book. JetBlue in the US and Easyjet in Europe for example do not do this. If there are no shows, they will sell the seats to standby passengers 40 minutes before departure. It is absolutely wrong that the airlines have been permitted to sell seats that they do not have and strand passengers with the defence that it is in the T&C'S.

There is no guarantee that people will be standing by to pay for a flight that suddenly has empty seats. If a flight is overbooked, they first offer compensation to confirmed passengers who will voluntarily give up that seat. If not enough volunteers are solicited, they then deny boarding to the last to checkin for the flight, pay them compensation, and re-book them on the next available flight to their destination.

I don't wish ill on anyone, but corporations which abuse their effective monopolies have to face consquences or they will get out of control. Look at the arrogance of the banks and ask yourself that if they had been properly regulated would this have happened? The answer is no. The same applies to the airlines. Competition only works in a properly regulated environment. It is time to take measures which include:

1. Re-regulating the industry
2. Strict enforcement of minimum standards of service, with fines and
penalties for failure to adhere to them.
3. Drop restrictions on foreign ownership of airlines
4. Drop restrictions on the operation of airlines from other countries
competing with US airlines
5. Ban the sale of seats more than once
6. Prohibit any airline from seeking Chapter 11 protection from creditors
more than once every 20 years
7. Levy penalties and fines on airlines where the DOT establishes any
dishonesty or malfeasance by airline employees. For example, if an
airline refuses lawful compensation and is subsequently found to have
mislead passengers (eg. blaming weather delay when it was in fact an
operational one), to triple the compensation to the passenger.

So you really want to go back to the days of regulation? Sure the service might improve but the price you will pay for that service will be astronomically high.

Non-refundable advance purchasse fares - gone! They will simply look at the cost of operating a particular flight, add on the profit they are allowed to make, then divide by the number of seats on that plane. Then on the day of departure if there are no-shows the arline will collect additonal fare based on the number of empty seats. That sounds like a great system, doesn't it? Or perhaps one's fare should be based on the combined weight of one's person and baggage. Then that would make it really fair since it costs more to transport a heavy person with lots of bags than a 98 pound granny with a purse! Better yet, do what TWA and Pan AM did back in the early days of aviation. Base a round-trip tran-continental fare on one month's wages of the average person. The average wage index for the year 2007 was $ 40,405.48 so a round-trip ticket from Los Angeles to New York would be about $ 3,367. I'll bet lots of people would fly at those prices!

[ChrisH]

Non-refundable advance purchasse fares - gone! They will simply look at the cost of operating a particular flight, add on the profit they are allowed to make, then divide by the number of seats on that plane. Then on the day of departure if there are no-shows the arline will collect additonal fare based on the number of empty seats. That sounds like a great system, doesn't it? Or perhaps one's fare should be based on the combined weight of one's person and baggage. Then that would make it really fair since it costs more to transport a heavy person with lots of bags than a 98 pound granny with a purse! Better yet, do what TWA and Pan AM did back in the early days of aviation. Base a round-trip tran-continental fare on one month's wages of the average person. The average wage index for the year 2007 was $ 40,405.48 so a round-trip ticket from Los Angeles to New York would be about $ 3,367. I'll bet lots of people would fly at those prices!

You hit the nail on the head when it comes to regulation. When regulation was in place, the government set the price for the fares. ALL airlines flying within a particular market, charged the same fare, and it was much more expensive, than even today. If you think airfare is high now, let re-regulation occur. On top of that, you wouldn't be able to go to a website like Expedia, or Travelocity, for a cheaper fare, on another airline. I have current co-workers who worked for the airlines, when they were regulated. ALL fares, within a given market, were the same, no matter what the airline. Airlines couldn't undercut each other, by charging a cheaper fare. Regulation has some good points, but I guarantee a re-regulating of the airline industry will return it back to the days when only the wealthy could fly, which would mean your average Joe would be stuck taking the bus, or train, or having to drive, because they will no longer be able to fly. This means that many people wouldn't be able to take advantage of the new, and improved customer service, to begin with.

As per the airlines charging for a "package", which includes security, and the airport, etc. The airlines, again, do not have anything to do with security. They do not have anything to do, with the airport. The TSA (Department of Homeland Security - OUR federal government) heads security, and makes the policies and security procedures you must follow, NOT the airlines. The airlines are mandated to charge the "9/11 security fee", and that money goes to the federal government, not the airlines. The airlines are also mandated to charge the airport/passenger facility charges, and airport taxes. That money goes to the airport, not the airline. The airlines do not own, and operate the airports. They rent gate, and ticket counter space, and have to pay landing fees, to even land at the airports. The airports are run by the city in which they reside, and contracts are worked out with the airlines, for them to fly in. The airlines are a source of revenue for the airport, hence the facilities charges.

I guess what we should have happen, is this. The airlines should be re-regulated, so service gets better. Keep in mind that re-regulating the industry will not stop the delays due to ATC, weather, etc., nor will it stop cancellations due to things, as well. It will just mean better service at the counter. It will mean greatly increased fares, however, as the cost for that service. The airlines should also stop charging the "9/11 security fee", and instead have you stand in a long line, to meet with a TSA cashier, who will collect that fee, before then directing you to the other long line, where you will then go through the security screening process. Once through security, you will then go through another long line, in which an airport cashier will then collect your airport facility charges, taxes, etc. This will certainly make for a very convenient process, but it will mean the airlines no longer are to blame for selling it as a "package", which will make people, apparently happier.

But, as is typical in this country, and with most people, they want something, and then when they get it, it isn't good enough, and/or not what they thought, and they want it changed again. You often don't realize how good things are, until they are changed. So, lets re-regulate the airline industry. You'll spend $1,000+ for your flight, instead of $150, but you'll get treated better at the counter, and by the airline, but still be stuck in coach, unless you want to pay the $5,000+ for the first class ticket. Then, instead of making it a little convenient, which is what the government, and the airport had in mind, by having the airlines collect the fees, those will all be collected seperately, as you go through security, etc. So you'll now have to show up to the airport five hours before your $1,000 flight, just to go through all of the process to get to the gate.

I would suggest that people go the a major book store (Barnes and Nobles, Book A Million, etc), and pick up a book called the "FAR/AIM". It is a book full of the federal air regulations that the airlines, and pilots, as a whole, must follow. Look at how thick that book is. People do not understand that there are rules to the sky, just like there are rules to the roads. You can't just go start up an airliner, and go fly. ALL airports, and runways have certain weather minimums, or airplanes cannot land, or takeoff. These minimums are set by the FAA, and they are different for each runway, and each airport. At the airport I work at, and the particular runway the airlines use, the clouds (ceiling) has to be at least 500 feet, or the planes cannot land. However, an airport just a few miles away, may have different minimums, of 1,000 feet. That is why planes can sometimes land and take off from one airport, but not another, etc. People are quick to blame the airlines for lying, etc., but the fact is, air travel, and flying airplanes is much more complicated than that. It isn't like getting in your car, and driving. Most passengers are ignorant to this, and chose to assume, because that assumptions is more "convenient" to them. The weather doesn't have to be storming, to cause a delay, or a cancellation, and that only scratches the surface. The airlines are not obligated to give refunds, or amenites, of any kind, when delays occur due to forces outside of their control (Weather, ATC, etc).

[ChrisH]

By the way

Airline executive WANT open skies agreements. Executives would like to have deals with foreign carriers. It is the labor unions that are fighting to prevent this from happening. AA's CEO has been trying to work a deal with British Airways for an OpenSkies agreement, before Bush leaves office (Obama is against it). I doubt it will happen, due to strong opposition from labor, however.

McCain, for example, was for doing away with cabatage laws, that prevent foreign carriers from having ownership of a U.S. airline, and from airlines entering into agreements with these foreign carriers. Airlines execs were big McCain supporters. They want this. Labor groups are strongly against this, thus were very pro Obama. Labor wants their jobs protected.

Again, it isn't the executives trying to prevent this, it is the labor groups, and unions.

As per 9/11. Many airlines entered into sham bankruptcies, and the main purpose was to get around expensive labor contracts, in particular, the pilot contracts. Before 9/11, pilots were making atronomical pay rates, and they weren't willing to budge, on concessions, in most cases, thus the airlines went to BK court, to have them thrown out.

Many laws have been changes, since 9/11, to prevent the airlines from doing this again. As a result, in the last year, airlines filing for BK, such as Aloha, ATA, and many other smaller airlines, have filed BK, and liquidated. They were not bailed out.

The airlines are not protected as much as you think, and much of the protection that is in place, is there due to labor unions, not executives.

[msc39nj]

You guys seem to be having fun with this. Enjoy. So far I've got my money back, and my miles back, for Continental tickets, according to Continental, and am working on recouping my costs for alternate travel. Will have to check all that actually happens. I don't trust these guys so much. Have little hope of getting reimbursement. No change in opinion on Continental. Enjoy the theoretical debates about what abstract world would be better or worse or which customers are reasonable or not. In the real world, unsatisfied customers don't speak kindly of their experience but they do patronize competitors' businesses.

[ChrisH]

I don't work for Continental, so it makes no difference what you say about them. Honestly I couldn't care less what you, or anybody says about any airline. I work for the airlines part-time, while finishing school. It isn't exactly a career job for me, and whether the airline stays in business, or not, while I hate to see other people lose their jobs, doesn't have a major effect on me. For what I make, I can go get a job at Taco Bell, and probably make more.

With that said, your opinion of Continental is taken, and understood. My only point is that choosing not to fly Continental will not prevent this from happening, again, on another carrier, nor will it result in Continental losing a customer. There is somebody else right now, who is having the same, or a similar problem with Delta, or some other airline, who will fly Continental next time, and you will fly the airline that person had the problem with, next time. Nobody lost a customer, the names just changed. The airlines realize this little phenomenom, that exists within the airline industry, thus one of the reasons they aren't pressed to change. They don't lose customers, the customers just switch around from one airline, to the next. The trick I've said all along, for airline customers to press the airlines to change, is to simply stop flying, period, on no airline. The whole, "I'm not flying this airline again", doesn't really work.


In conclusion, I say this. You go through the same security line, and pay the same facility charges, for that particular airport, whether you fly to and from that airport on Continental, or another airline. The problem you had with Continental, is not limited to Continental. Is my purpose to stick up for Continental, as it may seem? No. Again, I don't care who you fly, or don't fly. I just think it it foolish, in this day and age of airline travel, to spend more money to avoid flying one airline, only to risk the same problems, or others, on another airline. Being as though there is no regulation, I say go with the cheaper fare, whoever that may be (even Continental), take a bus, take a train, or just simply drive, and avoid flying altogether, on any airline.

[jimworcs]

The fate of the banks and their impact on the world economy should give you some pause for thought as to what can happen when an industry is either de-regulated or ineffectivley regulated. Regulation of an industry does not necessarily require regulation of fares. The non-refundable ticket would not disappear and it is rarely effective to argue your case by inventing ridiculous "doomsday" scenarios for the catastrophic effects of legislative change. I am arguing for sensible balanced re-regulation of the industry to prevent the excesses, some of which are highlighted on here.

Re-regulation will increase air fares, and so it should. In fact, air fares need to increase for economic and environmental reasons. They are currently unecomonic.. and if you look at the balance sheets of the airlines, no sane person could argue otherwise. Furthermore, when air fares are set at unrealistically low prices, it encourages travel to such a degree that the infrastructure, such as time slots, runways, airports and demands on ATC can't cope, particularly when there is disruption due to weather, industrial action, etc. Higher prices will suppress some demand, which is ultimately good for the environment and the system itself.

Your argument for overbooking flights doesn't really work. If you booked a theatre seat, it is quite likely that the same family of four could have a flat tyre en route. The theatre calculates that 5% percent of theatre goers won't show up and so oversells it's tickets. You are happy to be turned away from a Broadway show even though you have booked tickets, months in advance, because it doesn't make sense to have empty seats? If not, why not?

The suggestion that the passenger doesn't fulfill their part of the contract by showing up is right... except in the vast majority of such instances the passenger doesn't get a refund, so the seat was paid for regardless of whether they travelled. In fact, the airline makes more money than it would if the passenger had turned up. The airline with 4 empty seats will use less fuel, and some of the airport fees are based on actual passenger numbers, which will be lower. It also has an opportunity to sell the seat twice with last minute airport sales.

ChrisH, I have news for you. The US airlines are certainly not fighting to have cabotage and "open skies" approved. Delta and Continental have both filed objections to the proposed BA/AA link up, and Continental are opposed to any foreign ownership of US airlines. 4 Majors filed objections to the original VirginAmerica submission to the FAA. I think you are sadly mistaken if you think the US airlines welcome competition from the outside. They are masters of deceit in this regard and vigorously oppose such measures via lobbyists sometimes whilst publicly presenting a very different face.

I think some of the airline defenders on this site could benefit from a more critical analysis of the BS the airlines pump out.