[scottgoold]

Dear weary travelers,
After only a short time reading the complaints on this site, I realize we are sheep. We have no power; we pay our money -- in good faith -- and yet are at risk of being treated like animals in holding pens.

My wife and I were approaching our 10th wedding anniversary. As we had been students when we married, we couldn't afford a honeymoon. We've been working for years to put a package together. Unfortunately, we selected United Airlines to be our partner.

In April 2008, we purchases tickets to Hawai'i for December 24, 2008. I received an email from United immediately after making the purchase and didn't hear from them again until Dec. 23rd. They emailed us that we could check-in and get our boarding passes. When I did, I found all our reservations had been changed.

I tried to correct this through United's phone reservations. Yet one only talks to people in India or the Philippines. I have no issues with these people; they are decent, hard working individuals. Yet neither side could understand the other. Second, the phone connection kept dropping and I would have to spend another 30 minutes getting back through their complex queue. Less than 12 hours until our flight, I was told by United to "take it or leave it." Of course, cancellations would cost us penalties -- and our hotels and other arrangements were now locked in. To cancel would cost us thousands of dollars. No options. United freely took our money, but they refused to honor our "contract." They did with us as they wished.

We had to leave much earlier; we were scheduled to arrive much later -- so much for the champagne toast I had planned at sunset for my wife. We would be lucky to get in at all. When we arrived from ABQ in LAX, we found we could not depart. The plane to HNL had to come through Washington, D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, New York, Denver, Seattle -- and Mars (yes, the planet). Just kidding on that last one, but you get the point.

United didn't have a plane for us in LA. It was high season; weather across the country was terrible; yet United expected to get all their planes through all of this drude while capacity was highest. This is where they put all of us at risk. They system is overpacked. People try to save $$s on luggage so they take too much on the plane. Up and down; up and down; under pressure, there are bangs and slips during cargo loading. There is ice on wings, yet they push these planes to the max to save a PENNY! Then, they throw you on board. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

We didn't make our connection from LAX to HNL. We were late, very late, but so were hundreds of other people. Finally, United decided to add another plane to the system -- hours too late for our $450 per night hotel, which we still had to pay.

While the outgoing flight was a disaster, the return was worse. When United rescheduled my flight, again without permission or any type of notice, they allowed 43 minutes between the HNL to LAX and LAX to ABQ flight. I complained at the time -- no options, take it or leave it. I called Customer Relations many times. They told me they could do nothing in advance of the flight. I would have to call back afterwards. No help from United! Yet each person I spoke with told me we would have no problem making the connection -- United's promise!

On the return and during taxi on the runway, United notified us they misloaded the baggage -- another safety issue, yet finally caught it (lucky this time). So we had to return to the terminal -- there's goes the 43 minute window. Yep, we missed the connection.

We were herded to United's counter to work out arrangements. They again did it for us... how nice. We arrived (late) at 6:19am after flying all night. United, so graciously, offered us a flight to leave LAX at 4pm that evening and get us to ABQ around 6pm. Just a tiny, tiny TWELVE hour delay. I said NO!

The agent said take it or leave it. I said neither and I want to speak with your supervisor. Her supervisor gave us the same offer. Take it or leave it. I said no, so she said "move along, I want to help the next customer." I refused to move. She called more supervisors and the police.

No, I'm not violent. I'm not someone who cusses in such situations or makes threats. The police loved us. They respected us for standing our ground. United brought more supervisors. After some time, they offered to send us to SFO, allow us to sit in the Bay Area airport for a while, and get us home at 4pm. Just a TEN hour delay. Again, I said no. When they said take it or leave it, I told United supervisor, Mr. Steve Stargen, to please get our bags.

At this time, my wife bought us tickets on Southwest that would have us home in two hours. I asked Mr. Stargen that United buy this ticket for us -- as a courtesy to stranded passengers. He refused.

Keep in mind that along the way, United personnel told us over and over that the "customer is their number one priority." You've heard this as well. If that were true, United would have purchased the ticket for us. But we all know that people aren't United's number one priority, money is!

It's all about money to them. You are a number and a value. They do not care one tiny bit about you as a human being. Yet we keep flying. We have limited options, as most airlines operate the same.

I have been writing to Ms. Kathy Wood, United Airlines Customer Relations. She first told me that I had no rights -- that United didn't need to notify me of a change to our contract; then United should if they make a change over 90 minutes (our was in excess of 90 minutes). She seems confused over the policy, but apologized for our inconvenience. She initially told me we were only 12 minutes late and that was no big deal. She admitted later to the error, as United's system confuses even her. We were over an hour late -- this is why we missed the LAX to ABQ connection.

Keep in mind these are generally people like you and me who just want a job so they can feed their family. We should not blame them. We live and work in a broken system -- because the system is focused on rewarding share holders who have stock in corporations rather than caring about each other.

You have a choice. You can do nothing and then one day you will be writing a complaint after having your ten-year vacation turned into a nightmare or you can get involved. We have a new president; the rules can be changed!

Why are we hiring the good and decent people in foreign lands when Americans need work? We, taxpayers, are currently paying for United's failures as we support their pilots after United defaulted on their obligations to these hard working Americans. We all know the heroics of Chesley Sullenberger, US Airways pilot, who saved his crew and passengers. We have many heroes in America, but this is lost on bad systems...

These bad systems are created by top executives who take home millions and receive huge bonusese each year. Yet what do you get? They take your money and you get a ticket to a nightmare.

As a final insult, the good Ms. Kathy Wood keeps offering us more coupons on a future flight on United. Are you serious? After all this, United expects us to take another chance. We paid nearly $1,000 per ticket and Ms. Wood offers around $400 to try again. Why? I don't live for money; I want memories, good friends and a quality life. I'll pay for a reasonable chance to make my own road. I don't ask for a handout -- only for a fair return for my hard earned money. I'm sure you agree. You can reach me at www.scottgoold.org

I am going to work on this, hopefully in a class action lawsuit. United stranded 1,000s over the holiday. I saw many people with tears in their eyes. They hadn't slept and wouldn't sleep for a long time. Their nightmare was just beginning. We were fortunate to have Southwest Airlines available as an option.

In unity...
Scott

[PHXFlyer]

Airline schedules can and often do change and the more in advance you purchase a ticket the more likely your itinerary will be impacted by those changes. You stated that you received an e-mail confirmation when you purchased the tickets but not again until the day prior to your departure. I’ll bet if you checked your e-mail account again you would find at least one notification from United about the schedule changes. Additionally, when you make a reservation several months in advance you should always proactively check those reservations periodically for schedule changes. It is easily done online. Had you noticed the schedule changes earlier you probably would have had other options for rescheduling to more desirable flight times however calling with less than 24 hours until your departure time on the day before Christmas Eve during peak holiday travel most flights were undoubtedly sold out or even over-booked. You say in your post;

Less than 12 hours until our flight, I was told by United to "take it or leave it."

I’m not at all certain if those were the exact words used since you repeated the “take it or leave it” phrase several times in your post and believe in all instances you may be paraphrasing just a bit, however given the busy time of year you were traveling compounded by the weather issues in other parts of the country both of which you were aware the telephone agents involved probably had no options to offer at the time.

When we arrived from ABQ in LAX, we found we could not depart. The plane to HNL had to come through Washington, D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, New York, Denver, Seattle -- and Mars (yes, the planet). Just kidding on that last one, but you get the point.

United didn't have a plane for us in LA. It was high season; weather across the country was terrible; yet United expected to get all their planes through all of this drude while capacity was highest. This is where they put all of us at risk. They system is overpacked.

UA probably finalized the schedule for late December some 2-3 months prior. How could they possibly know which days would be affected by weather and in what parts of the country. Unless you start from a hub city early in the morning the first aircraft you board is coming from somewhere else. Airlines don’t have spare aircraft scattered about their systems and if they do have a spare or two they are usually located in hub cities which LAX is not a hub for UA. I can’t know if at the time you booked your trip if it was more expensive to do so but connecting through Denver of San Francisco, both UA hubs, might have been a better choice and both cities have more frequency and therefore more capacity to/from HNL.

We didn't make our connection from LAX to HNL. We were late, very late, but so were hundreds of other people. Finally, United decided to add another plane to the system -- hours too late for our $450 per night hotel, which we still had to pay.

United.com offers the option for travel insurance through a third-party, Access America. I plugged in your origin, ABQ, destination, HNL, and approximate price paid per ticket, $1000, and the quote was $110 for BOTH. I’m not sure if the delay resulted in your losing the whole night’s stay at the hotel but the $110 investment in travel insurance might have covered at least part of your $450/night room.

While the outgoing flight was a disaster, the return was worse. When United rescheduled my flight, again without permission or any type of notice, they allowed 43 minutes between the HNL to LAX and LAX to ABQ flight. I complained at the time -- no options, take it or leave it. I called Customer Relations many times. They told me they could do nothing in advance of the flight. I would have to call back afterwards. No help from United! Yet each person I spoke with told me we would have no problem making the connection -- United's promise!

43 minutes would have been sufficient if the HNL-LAX flight was on-time. The “promise” was made based on that assumption. How could someone on the phone look into a crystal ball and tell you with absolute certainty that everything would be on time? You accepted it as truth but should have been skeptical!

The agent said take it or leave it. I said neither and I want to speak with your supervisor. Her supervisor gave us the same offer. Take it or leave it. I said no, so she said "move along, I want to help the next customer." I refused to move. She called more supervisors and the police.

Sorry, but your refusal to accept the fact that nothing more could be done, even after being told so by a supervisor, and your refusal to move out of the way when requested brought those actions upon yourself. Airports are private property and if you are advised to step away you should take that advice.

At this time, my wife bought us tickets on Southwest that would have us home in two hours. I asked Mr. Stargen that United buy this ticket for us -- as a courtesy to stranded passengers. He refused.

Southwest does not have ticketing agreements with any other airline. Short of using his personal credit card to pay for those tickets, Mr. Stargen was correct that neither he or United could pay for your tickets on Southwest.

As a final insult, the good Ms. Kathy Wood keeps offering us more coupons on a future flight on United. Are you serious? After all this, United expects us to take another chance. We paid nearly $1,000 per ticket and Ms. Wood offers around $400 to try again. Why? I don't live for money; I want memories, good friends and a quality life. I'll pay for a reasonable chance to make my own road. I don't ask for a handout -- only for a fair return for my hard earned money. I'm sure you agree. You can reach me at www.scottgoold.org

I am going to work on this, hopefully in a class action lawsuit. United stranded 1,000s over the holiday. I saw many people with tears in their eyes. They hadn't slept and wouldn't sleep for a long time. Their nightmare was just beginning. We were fortunate to have Southwest Airlines available as an option.

Very conflicting statements here. On the one hand you say that $400 in travel vouchers isn’t enough and are prepared to initiate a class action lawsuite yet on the other you claim to not be out for money or “a handout.” Just what is it that you want here? I would say that $400 in travel vouchers EACH would be more than fair since they got you to Hawaii albeit later than you had originally planned. As far as your return trip is concerned, it was your choice to bail out on United at LAX and make your own arrangements for travel to ABQ on Southwest. About all you should expect from United for that is a refund of the unused portion of the ticket from LAX to ABQ. Knowing how tickets to Hawaii are fared and knowing you paid just under $1000 for each ticket don’t be surprised if they value the LAX-ABQ segment of your trip at about $125 or less.

[jimworcs]

I received an email from United immediately after making the purchase and didn't hear from them again until Dec. 23rd.

What basis PHX do you question this posters statement. Here he states categorically that UA did not inform him, but you know better? How so?

As usual, it is the customers fault.. why should a customer have to regularly check back and make sure the airline hasn't changed the service they purchased? I buy a ticket for a particular flight, I expect the airline to provide that service. If they can't, then just let me know and I will decide if I wish to proceed or not. Why should a customer have to take out insurance against a company failing to provide the service you expect? When you buy a ticket to a concert, do you buy insurance in case the venue decide to deny you entry? If not, why not.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

What basis PHX do you question this posters statement. Here he states categorically that UA did not inform him, but you know better? How so?

As usual, it is the customers fault.. why should a customer have to regularly check back and make sure the airline hasn't changed the service they purchased? I buy a ticket for a particular flight, I expect the airline to provide that service. If they can't, then just let me know and I will decide if I wish to proceed or not. Why should a customer have to take out insurance against a company failing to provide the service you expect? When you buy a ticket to a concert, do you buy insurance in case the venue decide to deny you entry? If not, why not.

For the exact reasons I stated. If you make a reservation 8 months out the times are bound to change even by a few minutes.

I am sure he received an e-mail because:

A. He stated he got a confirmation e-mail and notification to check-in both at the same email address. So his e-mail address did not change in the eight months in-between and...

B. I book have booked with United before and my itineraries have been affected by schedule changes. Each time I was notified by e-mail. Perhaps the e-mail was overlooked assuming marketing or "junk mail" but rest assured if the itinerary was changed at all he received notification.

Why should a customer have to regularly check back? Have you heard of re-confirmation? If I purchase tickets 8 months ahead of time which I only do for holiday travel for which I know the dates I want to travel far in advance I would, as a reasonable person, double check at least the departure time somewhat closer to my date of travel. So many of the posts I see here are problems which could have been avoided by using just a bit of COMMON SENSE!

[Corbel]

i also booked a ticket on UA in nov. for travel in march. the flight times have changed at LEAST 3-4 times now. United has emailed me schedule changes. not only that, but i check ual.com at least once a week to see if there are any changes. i dont mean to sound rude but, why couldn't you do that? why cant some people be responsible for themselves. i dont know why UA didn't email you or notify you, but you could check it yourself as well.

[scottgoold]

Dear Corbel,
I don't think you're rude, but I have more important things to do each day than worry whether an airline company changes my contract. I guess you're not used to being treated courteously. I picked the flights, connections and times I wanted. I then paid my money -- United took it. You talk about "my responsibility." Are you kidding? After United took my money, the burden rests with them, not me.

United listed the flights -- this was their "offer." I selected my flights, paid my money. This is my responsibility -- I paid my money.

If United wants to change the flight, if they want to change their offer, then it is their responsibility to notify me. Wow, I'm shocked that you demand so little after paying your money. No wonder the industry treats us so badly. You are actually blaming me...

[jimworcs]

Spot on Scott, and the only way this will happen is to re-regulate the industry. The airlines are out of control and because they operate local monopolies through fortress hubs, market forces will not bring them into the line. I think political action is the only thing which will work. I hope you will pursue your local Senator about this matter too.

[scottgoold]

Dear JimWorcs,
Thank you, and yes, you are correct. De-regulation has been a disaster for this critical industry. Nearly all are facing bankruptcy. There were thousands of people stranded in United's terminal over the holiday. I'd never seen so much despair. This is why I am pushing this so forcefully. Air travel is essential to the health of our economy and nation. Yet paying passengers have absolutely no rights. I am stunned by many of the comments from people in this forum. They've forgotten what true customer service looks like. And, as you note, it's due to the monopoly power the various companies yield. We really don't have options. It's a take it or leave it system. With ExxonMobile posting record profits of $45.2 billion; Wall Street bonuses of approximately $20 billion; and the flying public at the mercy of greedy management -- extra charges for second bag, no more food on flights, charge for this, charge for that, change your flight at will, strand you for hours -- it is time for a massive change in our system. This is not capitalism, as the market is not allowed to work. It is a plutocratic system and we're the slaves.

[airhead]

As long as people keep buying the tickets, the airlines will continue.

[scottgoold]

Dear PHXFlier,
I would like to address some of your comments. You wrote, "It's not that they [United] refused, it was that they were unable to," when I asked United to put me on a more timely flight, in this case, a Southwest flight.

As I wrote originally, United could have made the purchase for me. Or they could have immediately refunded my money and I could have made the purchase. There are many things they could have done, yet what they did was to strand me for 10-12 hours. Why does the flying public allow this? I believe "airhead" provided the best answer... "As long as people keep buying the tickets, the airlines will continue." I am posting to this forum in the hope people will stop buying tickets under these condition. As consumers, we can demand better treatment.

You answered "airhead's" post with: "Blah blah blah, Monopolies, blah blah blah, Fortress Hubs, blah blah.. Same tired old argument on every thread. Can't you at least come up with something new?"

Why something new? The flying public is treated like this because we don't have a market-based system. It is monopolistic, or oligopolistic if we want to be technical. Why do we allow this? Maybe a return to a a nationalized, regulated system, would create better conditions.

You also claim I wasn't punished for buying early. You added that United can't "possibly know 8-9 months out if the schedule they publish will need adjustments." Then, United shouldn't make the offer. Once they list a flight, once the consumer pays their money, then United is the obligated party. It's basic contract law. One party makes an offer -- a flight at a certain time, on a certain day, and delivery at a specific time. The other party accepts the offer and makes the payment. Deal done!

In addition, this is why theoretically the CEOs and top execs are paid as well as they are -- because they are taking risks on future performance. They pull their economists together and decide how many travelers they can expect; how many planes they will need, etc. They then make offers and people accept and pay. I doubt you're making the millions per year; I'm not. I assume that is due to the fact that they are more skilled than the two of us. Let's not bail them out. Nobody is forcing their hand. They do not have to offer what they cannot support. Offer less flights. When they fill up, add another plane or route.

Instead, United offered too many flights. They got caught by the looming recession. Therefore, they punished those who put down their money early by moving them (unilaterally in my case, since they failed to notify me) to other flights. This is a violation of the basic contractual concept.

You continue to argue that the passenger should constantly watch this. I disagree with you. I am a small business owner. When a client hands me their money, they expect me to shoulder the burden of responsibility. This is how it works in a market economy. If I had a monopoly in my area, I suppose I could push my weight around. Yet monopolies are un-American and un-democratic. This is why we have the sophisticated anti-trust laws in our society.

I know you are trying to be helpful, but the air travel system is broken. If you saw their long lines of stranded passengers that I saw, you would agree. If you look at the overall economic status of these companies, you also would agree that this industry is very ill. We need massive restructuring!

[jimworcs]

Couldn't agree more Scott...

Except for one little line...

I know you are trying to be helpful

You might want to read some of PHX's other posts and see if you think they are consistent with that statement!!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Spot on Scott, and the only way this will happen is to re-regulate the industry. The airlines are out of control and because they operate local monopolies through fortress hubs, market forces will not bring them into the line. I think political action is the only thing which will work. I hope you will pursue your local Senator about this matter too.

"Blah blah blah, Monopolies, blah blah blah, Fortress Hubs, blah blah.."

Same tired old argument on every thread. Can't you at least come up with something new?