[scottgoold]

Dear weary travelers,
After only a short time reading the complaints on this site, I realize we are sheep. We have no power; we pay our money -- in good faith -- and yet are at risk of being treated like animals in holding pens.

My wife and I were approaching our 10th wedding anniversary. As we had been students when we married, we couldn't afford a honeymoon. We've been working for years to put a package together. Unfortunately, we selected United Airlines to be our partner.

In April 2008, we purchases tickets to Hawai'i for December 24, 2008. I received an email from United immediately after making the purchase and didn't hear from them again until Dec. 23rd. They emailed us that we could check-in and get our boarding passes. When I did, I found all our reservations had been changed.

I tried to correct this through United's phone reservations. Yet one only talks to people in India or the Philippines. I have no issues with these people; they are decent, hard working individuals. Yet neither side could understand the other. Second, the phone connection kept dropping and I would have to spend another 30 minutes getting back through their complex queue. Less than 12 hours until our flight, I was told by United to "take it or leave it." Of course, cancellations would cost us penalties -- and our hotels and other arrangements were now locked in. To cancel would cost us thousands of dollars. No options. United freely took our money, but they refused to honor our "contract." They did with us as they wished.

We had to leave much earlier; we were scheduled to arrive much later -- so much for the champagne toast I had planned at sunset for my wife. We would be lucky to get in at all. When we arrived from ABQ in LAX, we found we could not depart. The plane to HNL had to come through Washington, D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, New York, Denver, Seattle -- and Mars (yes, the planet). Just kidding on that last one, but you get the point.

United didn't have a plane for us in LA. It was high season; weather across the country was terrible; yet United expected to get all their planes through all of this drude while capacity was highest. This is where they put all of us at risk. They system is overpacked. People try to save $$s on luggage so they take too much on the plane. Up and down; up and down; under pressure, there are bangs and slips during cargo loading. There is ice on wings, yet they push these planes to the max to save a PENNY! Then, they throw you on board. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

We didn't make our connection from LAX to HNL. We were late, very late, but so were hundreds of other people. Finally, United decided to add another plane to the system -- hours too late for our $450 per night hotel, which we still had to pay.

While the outgoing flight was a disaster, the return was worse. When United rescheduled my flight, again without permission or any type of notice, they allowed 43 minutes between the HNL to LAX and LAX to ABQ flight. I complained at the time -- no options, take it or leave it. I called Customer Relations many times. They told me they could do nothing in advance of the flight. I would have to call back afterwards. No help from United! Yet each person I spoke with told me we would have no problem making the connection -- United's promise!

On the return and during taxi on the runway, United notified us they misloaded the baggage -- another safety issue, yet finally caught it (lucky this time). So we had to return to the terminal -- there's goes the 43 minute window. Yep, we missed the connection.

We were herded to United's counter to work out arrangements. They again did it for us... how nice. We arrived (late) at 6:19am after flying all night. United, so graciously, offered us a flight to leave LAX at 4pm that evening and get us to ABQ around 6pm. Just a tiny, tiny TWELVE hour delay. I said NO!

The agent said take it or leave it. I said neither and I want to speak with your supervisor. Her supervisor gave us the same offer. Take it or leave it. I said no, so she said "move along, I want to help the next customer." I refused to move. She called more supervisors and the police.

No, I'm not violent. I'm not someone who cusses in such situations or makes threats. The police loved us. They respected us for standing our ground. United brought more supervisors. After some time, they offered to send us to SFO, allow us to sit in the Bay Area airport for a while, and get us home at 4pm. Just a TEN hour delay. Again, I said no. When they said take it or leave it, I told United supervisor, Mr. Steve Stargen, to please get our bags.

At this time, my wife bought us tickets on Southwest that would have us home in two hours. I asked Mr. Stargen that United buy this ticket for us -- as a courtesy to stranded passengers. He refused.

Keep in mind that along the way, United personnel told us over and over that the "customer is their number one priority." You've heard this as well. If that were true, United would have purchased the ticket for us. But we all know that people aren't United's number one priority, money is!

It's all about money to them. You are a number and a value. They do not care one tiny bit about you as a human being. Yet we keep flying. We have limited options, as most airlines operate the same.

I have been writing to Ms. Kathy Wood, United Airlines Customer Relations. She first told me that I had no rights -- that United didn't need to notify me of a change to our contract; then United should if they make a change over 90 minutes (our was in excess of 90 minutes). She seems confused over the policy, but apologized for our inconvenience. She initially told me we were only 12 minutes late and that was no big deal. She admitted later to the error, as United's system confuses even her. We were over an hour late -- this is why we missed the LAX to ABQ connection.

Keep in mind these are generally people like you and me who just want a job so they can feed their family. We should not blame them. We live and work in a broken system -- because the system is focused on rewarding share holders who have stock in corporations rather than caring about each other.

You have a choice. You can do nothing and then one day you will be writing a complaint after having your ten-year vacation turned into a nightmare or you can get involved. We have a new president; the rules can be changed!

Why are we hiring the good and decent people in foreign lands when Americans need work? We, taxpayers, are currently paying for United's failures as we support their pilots after United defaulted on their obligations to these hard working Americans. We all know the heroics of Chesley Sullenberger, US Airways pilot, who saved his crew and passengers. We have many heroes in America, but this is lost on bad systems...

These bad systems are created by top executives who take home millions and receive huge bonusese each year. Yet what do you get? They take your money and you get a ticket to a nightmare.

As a final insult, the good Ms. Kathy Wood keeps offering us more coupons on a future flight on United. Are you serious? After all this, United expects us to take another chance. We paid nearly $1,000 per ticket and Ms. Wood offers around $400 to try again. Why? I don't live for money; I want memories, good friends and a quality life. I'll pay for a reasonable chance to make my own road. I don't ask for a handout -- only for a fair return for my hard earned money. I'm sure you agree. You can reach me at www.scottgoold.org

I am going to work on this, hopefully in a class action lawsuit. United stranded 1,000s over the holiday. I saw many people with tears in their eyes. They hadn't slept and wouldn't sleep for a long time. Their nightmare was just beginning. We were fortunate to have Southwest Airlines available as an option.

In unity...
Scott

[PHXFlyer]

Airline schedules can and often do change and the more in advance you purchase a ticket the more likely your itinerary will be impacted by those changes. You stated that you received an e-mail confirmation when you purchased the tickets but not again until the day prior to your departure. I’ll bet if you checked your e-mail account again you would find at least one notification from United about the schedule changes. Additionally, when you make a reservation several months in advance you should always proactively check those reservations periodically for schedule changes. It is easily done online. Had you noticed the schedule changes earlier you probably would have had other options for rescheduling to more desirable flight times however calling with less than 24 hours until your departure time on the day before Christmas Eve during peak holiday travel most flights were undoubtedly sold out or even over-booked. You say in your post;

Less than 12 hours until our flight, I was told by United to "take it or leave it."

I’m not at all certain if those were the exact words used since you repeated the “take it or leave it” phrase several times in your post and believe in all instances you may be paraphrasing just a bit, however given the busy time of year you were traveling compounded by the weather issues in other parts of the country both of which you were aware the telephone agents involved probably had no options to offer at the time.

When we arrived from ABQ in LAX, we found we could not depart. The plane to HNL had to come through Washington, D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, New York, Denver, Seattle -- and Mars (yes, the planet). Just kidding on that last one, but you get the point.

United didn't have a plane for us in LA. It was high season; weather across the country was terrible; yet United expected to get all their planes through all of this drude while capacity was highest. This is where they put all of us at risk. They system is overpacked.

UA probably finalized the schedule for late December some 2-3 months prior. How could they possibly know which days would be affected by weather and in what parts of the country. Unless you start from a hub city early in the morning the first aircraft you board is coming from somewhere else. Airlines don’t have spare aircraft scattered about their systems and if they do have a spare or two they are usually located in hub cities which LAX is not a hub for UA. I can’t know if at the time you booked your trip if it was more expensive to do so but connecting through Denver of San Francisco, both UA hubs, might have been a better choice and both cities have more frequency and therefore more capacity to/from HNL.

We didn't make our connection from LAX to HNL. We were late, very late, but so were hundreds of other people. Finally, United decided to add another plane to the system -- hours too late for our $450 per night hotel, which we still had to pay.

United.com offers the option for travel insurance through a third-party, Access America. I plugged in your origin, ABQ, destination, HNL, and approximate price paid per ticket, $1000, and the quote was $110 for BOTH. I’m not sure if the delay resulted in your losing the whole night’s stay at the hotel but the $110 investment in travel insurance might have covered at least part of your $450/night room.

While the outgoing flight was a disaster, the return was worse. When United rescheduled my flight, again without permission or any type of notice, they allowed 43 minutes between the HNL to LAX and LAX to ABQ flight. I complained at the time -- no options, take it or leave it. I called Customer Relations many times. They told me they could do nothing in advance of the flight. I would have to call back afterwards. No help from United! Yet each person I spoke with told me we would have no problem making the connection -- United's promise!

43 minutes would have been sufficient if the HNL-LAX flight was on-time. The “promise” was made based on that assumption. How could someone on the phone look into a crystal ball and tell you with absolute certainty that everything would be on time? You accepted it as truth but should have been skeptical!

The agent said take it or leave it. I said neither and I want to speak with your supervisor. Her supervisor gave us the same offer. Take it or leave it. I said no, so she said "move along, I want to help the next customer." I refused to move. She called more supervisors and the police.

Sorry, but your refusal to accept the fact that nothing more could be done, even after being told so by a supervisor, and your refusal to move out of the way when requested brought those actions upon yourself. Airports are private property and if you are advised to step away you should take that advice.

At this time, my wife bought us tickets on Southwest that would have us home in two hours. I asked Mr. Stargen that United buy this ticket for us -- as a courtesy to stranded passengers. He refused.

Southwest does not have ticketing agreements with any other airline. Short of using his personal credit card to pay for those tickets, Mr. Stargen was correct that neither he or United could pay for your tickets on Southwest.

As a final insult, the good Ms. Kathy Wood keeps offering us more coupons on a future flight on United. Are you serious? After all this, United expects us to take another chance. We paid nearly $1,000 per ticket and Ms. Wood offers around $400 to try again. Why? I don't live for money; I want memories, good friends and a quality life. I'll pay for a reasonable chance to make my own road. I don't ask for a handout -- only for a fair return for my hard earned money. I'm sure you agree. You can reach me at www.scottgoold.org

I am going to work on this, hopefully in a class action lawsuit. United stranded 1,000s over the holiday. I saw many people with tears in their eyes. They hadn't slept and wouldn't sleep for a long time. Their nightmare was just beginning. We were fortunate to have Southwest Airlines available as an option.

Very conflicting statements here. On the one hand you say that $400 in travel vouchers isn’t enough and are prepared to initiate a class action lawsuite yet on the other you claim to not be out for money or “a handout.” Just what is it that you want here? I would say that $400 in travel vouchers EACH would be more than fair since they got you to Hawaii albeit later than you had originally planned. As far as your return trip is concerned, it was your choice to bail out on United at LAX and make your own arrangements for travel to ABQ on Southwest. About all you should expect from United for that is a refund of the unused portion of the ticket from LAX to ABQ. Knowing how tickets to Hawaii are fared and knowing you paid just under $1000 for each ticket don’t be surprised if they value the LAX-ABQ segment of your trip at about $125 or less.

[jimworcs]

I received an email from United immediately after making the purchase and didn't hear from them again until Dec. 23rd.

What basis PHX do you question this posters statement. Here he states categorically that UA did not inform him, but you know better? How so?

As usual, it is the customers fault.. why should a customer have to regularly check back and make sure the airline hasn't changed the service they purchased? I buy a ticket for a particular flight, I expect the airline to provide that service. If they can't, then just let me know and I will decide if I wish to proceed or not. Why should a customer have to take out insurance against a company failing to provide the service you expect? When you buy a ticket to a concert, do you buy insurance in case the venue decide to deny you entry? If not, why not.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

What basis PHX do you question this posters statement. Here he states categorically that UA did not inform him, but you know better? How so?

As usual, it is the customers fault.. why should a customer have to regularly check back and make sure the airline hasn't changed the service they purchased? I buy a ticket for a particular flight, I expect the airline to provide that service. If they can't, then just let me know and I will decide if I wish to proceed or not. Why should a customer have to take out insurance against a company failing to provide the service you expect? When you buy a ticket to a concert, do you buy insurance in case the venue decide to deny you entry? If not, why not.

For the exact reasons I stated. If you make a reservation 8 months out the times are bound to change even by a few minutes.

I am sure he received an e-mail because:

A. He stated he got a confirmation e-mail and notification to check-in both at the same email address. So his e-mail address did not change in the eight months in-between and...

B. I book have booked with United before and my itineraries have been affected by schedule changes. Each time I was notified by e-mail. Perhaps the e-mail was overlooked assuming marketing or "junk mail" but rest assured if the itinerary was changed at all he received notification.

Why should a customer have to regularly check back? Have you heard of re-confirmation? If I purchase tickets 8 months ahead of time which I only do for holiday travel for which I know the dates I want to travel far in advance I would, as a reasonable person, double check at least the departure time somewhat closer to my date of travel. So many of the posts I see here are problems which could have been avoided by using just a bit of COMMON SENSE!

[Corbel]

i also booked a ticket on UA in nov. for travel in march. the flight times have changed at LEAST 3-4 times now. United has emailed me schedule changes. not only that, but i check ual.com at least once a week to see if there are any changes. i dont mean to sound rude but, why couldn't you do that? why cant some people be responsible for themselves. i dont know why UA didn't email you or notify you, but you could check it yourself as well.

[scottgoold]

Dear Corbel,
I don't think you're rude, but I have more important things to do each day than worry whether an airline company changes my contract. I guess you're not used to being treated courteously. I picked the flights, connections and times I wanted. I then paid my money -- United took it. You talk about "my responsibility." Are you kidding? After United took my money, the burden rests with them, not me.

United listed the flights -- this was their "offer." I selected my flights, paid my money. This is my responsibility -- I paid my money.

If United wants to change the flight, if they want to change their offer, then it is their responsibility to notify me. Wow, I'm shocked that you demand so little after paying your money. No wonder the industry treats us so badly. You are actually blaming me...

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by scottgoold

Dear Corbel,
I don't think you're rude, but I have more important things to do each day than worry whether an airline company changes my contract. I guess you're not used to being treated courteously. I picked the flights, connections and times I wanted. I then paid my money -- United took it. You talk about "my responsibility." Are you kidding? After United took my money, the burden rests with them, not me.

United listed the flights -- this was their "offer." I selected my flights, paid my money. This is my responsibility -- I paid my money.

If United wants to change the flight, if they want to change their offer, then it is their responsibility to notify me. Wow, I'm shocked that you demand so little after paying your money. No wonder the industry treats us so badly. You are actually blaming me...

We're not playing the blame game here, only trying to let you and others know what mistakes were made. Bottom line, wether you receive notice or not it's a good idea to check your itinerary periodically for schedule changes.

Furthermore, had you found that the new schedule no longer met your needs, United would have been obligated to rebook you on other flights (UA or non-UA) which did or refund your tickets. Unfortunately at the time you were finally aware of the changes there were no viable options.

[scottgoold]

Dear PHXFlier,
Actually, this entire site is focused on blame. We are complaining about airline service, etc. For me, my objective is to better the quality of our air travel. I would love to respect our carriers, but I do not accept the way they seem to treat their passengers.

You said you are "only trying to let you and others know what mistakes were made." As I've pointed out, I do not believe it is my responsibility to constantly check back about my flight. Once I pay my money, once United in this case accepts it, I expect them to shoulder the burden of contacting me when they make a change. If I make a change, then I pay a penalty. We need balance in this system.

I question your comment "United would have been obligated to rebook you on other flights (UA or non-UA) which did or refund your tickets." This is what I thought as well. Remember my original story... when we arrived in LAX, too late for their scheduled flight, I demanded not to be stranded for 10-12 hours. I asked them to put me on a Southwest flight. They refused. I told them I would not use the last portion of the United itinerary, which I must do to qualify for a refund. Yet they did not credit me there; they did not offer a non-UA flight. This is the point of my argument with United. They are responsible for making the error -- booking us too close to the connection and they are responsible to get us home near to our promised time.

This wasn't weather or mechanical. It was a human error on the part of United. Yet it was negligent to put the connection so close together on such a complex flight. There are too many variables. Sure, as you wrote, if everything went perfectly, we would have made it. But in management, as you likely know, one should "hope for the best, but plan for the worst."

United didn't do this. I'm not just arguing for me. United stranded over 100 passengers due to this error. Their system is not geared for the customer. They are focusing on their bottom line -- their profits, and that is why we must stand up to this treatment.

The final point is that these conditions turn our tickets into a lottery. Regardless of when you buy, how diligent you are to check your itinerary, they can always change as they want with no penalty. If there is a major change at the last minute, you either pay much higher prices on another airline or you suffer through a bad schedule.

This is why I bought our tickets early. I was playing the "futures" market. I guessed that fuel prices would go up, so I bought early. I guessed that it would be high season and crowded. I wanted good seats and efficient connections, so I bought early to have ample choices.

United erased all of this by changing my plans -- sometime, I don't know when. Why buy early? Why give them our money? This is why the concepts of a contract must be in place. Their behavior distorts the efficiency of the market. I was punished for making an early decision. We must require the industry to be fair to us.

[jimworcs]

Spot on Scott, and the only way this will happen is to re-regulate the industry. The airlines are out of control and because they operate local monopolies through fortress hubs, market forces will not bring them into the line. I think political action is the only thing which will work. I hope you will pursue your local Senator about this matter too.

[scottgoold]

Dear JimWorcs,
Thank you, and yes, you are correct. De-regulation has been a disaster for this critical industry. Nearly all are facing bankruptcy. There were thousands of people stranded in United's terminal over the holiday. I'd never seen so much despair. This is why I am pushing this so forcefully. Air travel is essential to the health of our economy and nation. Yet paying passengers have absolutely no rights. I am stunned by many of the comments from people in this forum. They've forgotten what true customer service looks like. And, as you note, it's due to the monopoly power the various companies yield. We really don't have options. It's a take it or leave it system. With ExxonMobile posting record profits of $45.2 billion; Wall Street bonuses of approximately $20 billion; and the flying public at the mercy of greedy management -- extra charges for second bag, no more food on flights, charge for this, charge for that, change your flight at will, strand you for hours -- it is time for a massive change in our system. This is not capitalism, as the market is not allowed to work. It is a plutocratic system and we're the slaves.

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by scottgoold

I question your comment "United would have been obligated to rebook you on other flights (UA or non-UA) which did or refund your tickets." This is what I thought as well. Remember my original story... when we arrived in LAX, too late for their scheduled flight, I demanded not to be stranded for 10-12 hours. I asked them to put me on a Southwest flight. They refused. I told them I would not use the last portion of the United itinerary, which I must do to qualify for a refund. Yet they did not credit me there; they did not offer a non-UA flight. This is the point of my argument with United. They are responsible for making the error -- booking us too close to the connection and they are responsible to get us home near to our promised time.

It's not that they refused, it was that they were unable to. Southwest does not have interline ticketing agreements with any other airlines. It is impossible for UA to issue you a ticket to fly on Southwest. Had the situation been reversed Southwest, likewise, is unable to issue a ticket to it's standed passengers to travel on another airline.

The final point is that these conditions turn our tickets into a lottery. Regardless of when you buy, how diligent you are to check your itinerary, they can always change as they want with no penalty. If there is a major change at the last minute, you either pay much higher prices on another airline or you suffer through a bad schedule.

Barring a cancellation, which is not a schedule change, the flight schedule generally doesn't change within a couple of months of your travel date. That's why when you purchase tickets several months in advance it is prudent to check back within a few weeks of your travel date to ensure the schedule hasn't changed. I've purchased tickets as much as 10 months ahead of time and had the schedule changed at least four times in the interim. It's just something that happens that you should keep on top of. When the airline makes the final schedule change they send out an e-mail to those affected. Is it just possible that you received an e-mail but ignored it thinking it was advertising or some other "junk" mail?

United erased all of this by changing my plans -- sometime, I don't know when. Why buy early? Why give them our money? This is why the concepts of a contract must be in place. Their behavior distorts the efficiency of the market. I was punished for making an early decision. We must require the industry to be fair to us.

You weren't "punished" for buying early. Purchasing your ticket early guaranteed you had seats for a price you were willing to pay. In the past several months all airlines have made adjustments to their schedules and have decreased frequency and canceled some routes altogether. They can't possibly know 8-9 months out if the schedule they publish will need adjustments. They are, after a ll, a business and to stay profitable need to change according to demand. Two days ago Starbucks announced it was closing some 300 stores. Do you think that 8-9 months ago they saw this coming?

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Spot on Scott, and the only way this will happen is to re-regulate the industry. The airlines are out of control and because they operate local monopolies through fortress hubs, market forces will not bring them into the line. I think political action is the only thing which will work. I hope you will pursue your local Senator about this matter too.

"Blah blah blah, Monopolies, blah blah blah, Fortress Hubs, blah blah.."

Same tired old argument on every thread. Can't you at least come up with something new?

[airhead]

As long as people keep buying the tickets, the airlines will continue.

[scottgoold]

Dear PHXFlier,
I would like to address some of your comments. You wrote, "It's not that they [United] refused, it was that they were unable to," when I asked United to put me on a more timely flight, in this case, a Southwest flight.

As I wrote originally, United could have made the purchase for me. Or they could have immediately refunded my money and I could have made the purchase. There are many things they could have done, yet what they did was to strand me for 10-12 hours. Why does the flying public allow this? I believe "airhead" provided the best answer... "As long as people keep buying the tickets, the airlines will continue." I am posting to this forum in the hope people will stop buying tickets under these condition. As consumers, we can demand better treatment.

You answered "airhead's" post with: "Blah blah blah, Monopolies, blah blah blah, Fortress Hubs, blah blah.. Same tired old argument on every thread. Can't you at least come up with something new?"

Why something new? The flying public is treated like this because we don't have a market-based system. It is monopolistic, or oligopolistic if we want to be technical. Why do we allow this? Maybe a return to a a nationalized, regulated system, would create better conditions.

You also claim I wasn't punished for buying early. You added that United can't "possibly know 8-9 months out if the schedule they publish will need adjustments." Then, United shouldn't make the offer. Once they list a flight, once the consumer pays their money, then United is the obligated party. It's basic contract law. One party makes an offer -- a flight at a certain time, on a certain day, and delivery at a specific time. The other party accepts the offer and makes the payment. Deal done!

In addition, this is why theoretically the CEOs and top execs are paid as well as they are -- because they are taking risks on future performance. They pull their economists together and decide how many travelers they can expect; how many planes they will need, etc. They then make offers and people accept and pay. I doubt you're making the millions per year; I'm not. I assume that is due to the fact that they are more skilled than the two of us. Let's not bail them out. Nobody is forcing their hand. They do not have to offer what they cannot support. Offer less flights. When they fill up, add another plane or route.

Instead, United offered too many flights. They got caught by the looming recession. Therefore, they punished those who put down their money early by moving them (unilaterally in my case, since they failed to notify me) to other flights. This is a violation of the basic contractual concept.

You continue to argue that the passenger should constantly watch this. I disagree with you. I am a small business owner. When a client hands me their money, they expect me to shoulder the burden of responsibility. This is how it works in a market economy. If I had a monopoly in my area, I suppose I could push my weight around. Yet monopolies are un-American and un-democratic. This is why we have the sophisticated anti-trust laws in our society.

I know you are trying to be helpful, but the air travel system is broken. If you saw their long lines of stranded passengers that I saw, you would agree. If you look at the overall economic status of these companies, you also would agree that this industry is very ill. We need massive restructuring!

[jimworcs]

Couldn't agree more Scott...

Except for one little line...

I know you are trying to be helpful

You might want to read some of PHX's other posts and see if you think they are consistent with that statement!!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by scottgoold

Dear PHXFlier,
I would like to address some of your comments. You wrote, "It's not that they [United] refused, it was that they were unable to," when I asked United to put me on a more timely flight, in this case, a Southwest flight.

As I wrote originally, United could have made the purchase for me. Or they could have immediately refunded my money and I could have made the purchase. There are many things they could have done, yet what they did was to strand me for 10-12 hours. Why does the flying public allow this? I believe "airhead" provided the best answer... "As long as people keep buying the tickets, the airlines will continue." I am posting to this forum in the hope people will stop buying tickets under these condition. As consumers, we can demand better treatment.

If United is unable to issue a ticket for travel on Southwest just how would you propose they go about purchasing a ticket for you? I don't think the staff at the airport carry corporate credit cards with which they could walk over to Southwest and buy your tickets. As I said before if the situation were reversed Southwest certainly wouldn't have purchased tickets for you on United. This is a losing argument. Airlines simply don't do this. Stop beating this dead horse and get over it.

Why something new? The flying public is treated like this because we don't have a market-based system. It is monopolistic, or oligopolistic if we want to be technical. Why do we allow this? Maybe a return to a a nationalized, regulated system, would create better conditions.

You also claim I wasn't punished for buying early. You added that United can't "possibly know 8-9 months out if the schedule they publish will need adjustments." Then, United shouldn't make the offer. Once they list a flight, once the consumer pays their money, then United is the obligated party. It's basic contract law. One party makes an offer -- a flight at a certain time, on a certain day, and delivery at a specific time. The other party accepts the offer and makes the payment. Deal done!

Still don't get how more regulation would have done anything to change your situation. Even in the "days of regulation" (which, by the way were 30 years ago - so don't hold your breath for a return to that level of regulation anytime soon, or ever) airlines would publish a schedule for flights 330 days out but the schedule was always subject to adjustments.

In addition, this is why theoretically the CEOs and top execs are paid as well as they are -- because they are taking risks on future performance. They pull their economists together and decide how many travelers they can expect; how many planes they will need, etc. They then make offers and people accept and pay. I doubt you're making the millions per year; I'm not. I assume that is due to the fact that they are more skilled than the two of us. Let's not bail them out. Nobody is forcing their hand. They do not have to offer what they cannot support. Offer less flights. When they fill up, add another plane or route.

Instead, United offered too many flights. They got caught by the looming recession. Therefore, they punished those who put down their money early by moving them (unilaterally in my case, since they failed to notify me) to other flights. This is a violation of the basic contractual concept.

How do you know the number of flights were reduced versus the schedule adjusted? Did you check the OAG schedule published when you purchased the ticket and compare it to the current schedule? Fact is, you don't know if you were impacted by capacity reduction, schedule change, or both. You are obviously not an educated consumer because you never bothered to check your itinerary until 24 hours before your departure when it was too late to do anything about it. You also ignored any notification United sent to you. I know you claim you were not notified but if you got the e-mail for the initial confirmation and the e-mail to check-in at the same e-mail address then you most certainly did receive notification of the schedule change. The fact that you dismissed it as junk or advertising is you own fault. Sorry.

You continue to argue that the passenger should constantly watch this. I disagree with you. I am a small business owner. When a client hands me their money, they expect me to shoulder the burden of responsibility. This is how it works in a market economy. If I had a monopoly in my area, I suppose I could push my weight around. Yet monopolies are un-American and un-democratic. This is why we have the sophisticated anti-trust laws in our society.

And just how is United or any other airline a monopoly? I just went on Kayak.com and asked for fares from ABQ to HNL and was given options on American, Delta, Northwest, United and US Airways. If you so desired you could book a flight on Southwest from ABQ to PHX, SAN, LAX, SFO, SLC and another airline from any of those cities to HNL. So, just how is there a monopoly when so many choices exist?

I know you are trying to be helpful, but the air travel system is broken. If you saw their long lines of stranded passengers that I saw, you would agree. If you look at the overall economic status of these companies, you also would agree that this industry is very ill. We need massive restructuring!

Restructuring will occur with the market, not by government intervention. It's already happening at US Airways. Once loyal customers are leaving them in droves. They are tired of the a-la-carte pricing structure (bags, beverages including water and cofee, snacks and meals) and the ageing dirty aircraft they fly. I don't think they are very long for this world unless they drastically change their busines model.

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Couldn't agree more Scott...

Except for one little line...

You might want to read some of PHX's other posts and see if you think they are consistent with that statement!!

[airhead]

Their are many different types of people on this site. Some will educate about how airlines operate and I think that is a good idea to an extent. If one criticizes anothers ignorance, then I find some fault in that. However, if that information is useful TO PREVENT another similar incident, then I hope that helps someone down the line. Others argue that airlines are operating under an authoritarian regime and I can agree to that to another extent. Some airline rules and liablility standards are absolutley ridiculous. If someone pays a handsome amount of money on a ticket then I would say it is a fair assesment to believe that the obligations of the schedule will be on schedule, given no wheather or mechanical problems. The down side of airtravel is that problems are in the equation. If somone pays a great deal of money for a ticket I would suspect that person would check the schedule ahead of time since the airlines have a history of fudging thier own schedules to meet their (management) demands.

I strongly encourage all to boycott the airlines until changes have been made. As long as people buy the tickets, a demand exists and I know people do not demand such poor service for paying so much money for a service that is minimally guaranteed by law. Airlines offer cheap fares to entice a market to buy and I am sure many of these fares do not pay the (operations) bills. Although it is a resonable capitol move to increase revenue, sacrificing qualtiy service is not really worth it.

People, stop buying these tickets! Show that you have no demand for such poor service! We are the economy. Not the sharp dressed managers studying the pie charts! Show them that we are not going to take it!

[jimworcs]

PHX.. as usual, you know someone got an email and ignored it... your faith in the airlines is touching. Co-incidently, here is another lying customer pretending that they never heard from United, when all along they deliberately ignored United's emails

Source: The Consumerist

By Alex Chasick, 7:30 PM on Fri Dec 26 2008, 59,204 views
Reader Thomas's scheduled travel on United Air on Christmas Eve went pretty much how you'd expect: his flight left four hours early, and his rebooked flight at 4 a.m. was overbooked. The horror, inside.

Thomas writes:

First, it's important to know that every year for the past 6 years I've flown from New Orleans to Denver to visit my parents for Christmas. The past couple of times we've been using United. This year, same as always, we made our ticket reservations almost 3 months in advance. We scheduled a flight to leave New Orleans for Denver at 6pm on December 24th. We get to the airport at 4:30pm and the adventure begins. The United check in area is abandoned but the self check in terminals are open, I put my debit card into the machine and it brings up my reservation and tells me that my flight left at 2:00pm. I ask an airport employee and he tells me to call United and fishes a ticket with phone numbers from behind the counter.

At this point I call my friend who I had drop me off and get him to park and let me see whats going on. I call the phone number in English I find on the ticket jacket and after navigating through their menu system get in touch with an agent. The agent tells me that they can get me on a flight for 6am today*Christmas*. I tell her I've got my parents coming to pick me up and I don't know how I'm going to get to the airport at 6am, I live about an hour from the airport. She tells me that's all she can do, but I can talk to a supervisor, but he won't be able to do anything either. She puts me on hold for about 5 minutes. My parents call, I can't answer because I'm on hold. She picks up, tells me she's transferring me now, then puts me on hold again. 20 minutes pass, my parents call again twice while I'm on hold. My Friend sends me 2 text messages asking whats going on. I have to hang up to get my friend to come and get me back home and tell my parents not to drive 2 hours to the airport to get me.

On the way back home I call United again. This time I get a man with an Indian accent. He tells me the same thing as the previous person. I ask if they can at least comp my parking so I don't have to foot a $100 parking bill since I'm probably going to have to bring my car to the airport since it would be very inconsiderate to ask someone to bring me to the airport at 4am on Christmas day. He tells me to talk to their customer care people. He can't transfer me, I have to call another phone number. I get a guy with customer care on the phone, another Indian accent, and he tells me that they can offer me a 10% discount on a later flight. Or a $25 credit on a later flight. I tell him this isn't acceptable, I want a parking or a partial refund to cover parking. He tells me no can do, oh and it is company policy that customers should check their flight info 24-48 hours before their flight and they weren't responsible for the fact that I never got a phone call or email that my flight information had been changed. I have found no reference to this anywhere, in fact the ticket sleeve says that reconfirmation of my reservation is not required. I hang up on the guy and call an agent to get my flight changed to 6am. My friend volunteers to take me to the airport while we're heading back home.

If this was all there was then it would be worthy of a post I think, but it gets worse. At 3:45am the next day I'm heading to the airport. We get there, get through security and are at the gate an hour before the flight. Their computer is broken and they only have about half the passengers seated at 6am. United apparently doesn't assign seats until you get to the terminal. They start manually assigning seats at this point. My wife is with me, she's stressed out and has been trying to keep me from getting too angry with the situation. We get called to get a seat about 10 people from the end. I get assigned a seat, 11E. She sees that there are more people than seats and tells me and my wife to stand to the side while she gets some people seated who's names she called while we were waiting and then proceeds to not deal with us and seats another passenger. I specifically heard a customer get assigned a seat 11F AFTER she assigned me 11E. At this point there were 3 people standing there and I was the only one with a seat assignment. She went on the airplane to see if there were extra seats somewhere, wtf?, she came back out and said "you two don't want to be split up, huh?" then gave the third person my seat. I get told nothing for another 20 minutes, we're standing here waiting to see what the hell is going, I'm obviously ****** off but trying very hard not to take it out on the agent. Eventually, 2 more agents come down and ask do we A, want to spend 7 hours by flying to Chicago, then to Colorado. B, want to spend 8 hours flying to Los Angeles then Colorado. or C. sit in the terminal for 7 hours then fly 3 hours to Colorado. My wife has issues with travel so we'd rather not spend 7+ hours onboard a plane. And here we are, sitting in the New Orleans airport for another 6 hours waiting for a plane to come.

Last night I was ****** off most because of the agent on the phone who put me on hold long enough for her call center to change over to India so she wouldn't have to deal with me. Today, I'm most ****** because they woke me up at 4am, out of spite? They did give us a pair of travel vouchers and a free lunch at a restaurant here in the airport, but somehow this doesn't make up for not waking up in Wyoming this morning or the stubborn refusal to do something as simple as cover parking and then telling me this is my responsibility for not checking on my reservation.

All these lying customers... if only the world was full of people like you eh PHX? Always checks ahead, sends his luggage via FedEx so when he is having drinks with the CEO he can snigger at the gullable fools who spend their money at the airline and expect the service they paid for to be delivered! Such fools.. don't they know how people like us get rich!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

PHX.. as usual, you know someone got an email and ignored it... your faith in the airlines is touching. Co-incidently, here is another lying customer pretending that they never heard from United, when all along they deliberately ignored United's emails

[/indent]All these lying customers... if only the world was full of people like you eh PHX? Always checks ahead, sends his luggage via FedEx so when he is having drinks with the CEO he can snigger at the gullable fools who spend their money at the airline and expect the service they paid for to be delivered! Such fools.. don't they know how people like us get rich!

Reported! Have a nice day!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

PHX.. as usual, you know someone got an email and ignored it... your faith in the airlines is touching. Co-incidently, here is another lying customer pretending that they never heard from United, when all along they deliberately ignored United's emails

Did I ever say the OP "deliberately ingnored" United's e-mails? No. Once again you are putting your spin on this and mis-quoting me to make me sound bad. All I said was perhaps there was an e-mail that was missed or dismissed as advertising/junk. It's happened to me before. I was shopping with a friend at PetSmart. When he went to check out he presented a coupon which he printed at home from and e-mail he received from PetSmart. I didn't recall receiving the same offer even though I was signed up to receive them. Sure enough when I got home and checked my e-mail there it was! I had completely missed it and missed out on $5 off my pet food. Bummer, but stuff happens. Couldn't the same have happened in both this case and the other you cite, jimworcs?

Let's just be logical about this for a moment. He had the same e-mail address. He received both his purchase confirmation and the 24 hour notice to check-in. Doesn't it stand to reason that any other e-mail correspondence about this itinerary would have gone to the very same e-mail address? This fact plus knowing that UA does send out e-mail notification of schdule changes (it's an automated process) would lead a reasonably intelligent person to conclude that there just might be a possibility that the e-mail was missed. Of course the fact remains that there might not have been an e-mail at all, but the odds of the human error of missing or dismissing the e-mail are much greater than those of an automated notification process completely failing.

[/indent]All these lying customers... if only the world was full of people like you eh PHX? Always checks ahead, sends his luggage via FedEx so when he is having drinks with the CEO he can snigger at the gullable fools who spend their money at the airline and expect the service they paid for to be delivered! Such fools.. don't they know how people like us get rich!

Again, "lying customers." Where did I say or even imply that. If the OP really believes he did not receive an e-mail then he isn't lying. He's just going on that assumption even though it may not be true.

Always checks ahead...yes you'd better believe it. An experinced and prudent traveler does check on itineraries especially those booked far in advance. I also set up notifications for any changes, delays or cancellations to be sent to my cellphone. The tools are there however some people still refuse to use them.

I never said I sent my luggage via FedEx. However I do send ahead those things I know are crucial to the trip. I can live with the clothes on my back and the single change of clothing I pack in my carryon if my checked luggage is delayed however I can be rest assured that the essentials I send ahead by FedEx will be waiting at the hotel when I check in.

[jimworcs]

Reported to who? Have you gone and snitched on me to the Principal PHX? I am quaking in my boots!!

[PHXFlyer]

Originally Posted by jimworcs

Reported to who? Have you gone and snitched on me to the Principal PHX? I am quaking in my boots!!

Reported to the person(s) who run this board. Don't worry, you won't end up on the "no-fly" list!